Rememberance Day - Remembrance Sunday ?

[thirdcrank]

It's interesting and more than a little ironic to learn that the commemoration was moved from the anniversary - 11 November - to the nearest Sunday so as not to interfere with the war effort in in WWII.

That doesn't answer the OP's question about why we now "have both." I can see the reference to expense is controversial to the point of being offensive to the whole concept of remembrance, but there's still a valid question in there. meic's post goes some way to addressing this, but it's no longer simply two minutes of quiet reflection on 11 November.

[Mick F]

We have both so that if people want to have quiet reflection, or go to the local war memorial at 11/11/11 they can do so. It's normal and it is facilitated. 2mins silence if you want it even whilst at work. After I left the RN I had a job locally driving a delivery van. I used to pull over and switch off the engine and pause for 2mins. I wasn't unusual in this.

The Sunday is there so it doesn't interfere with the generally accepted normal week. Schools can attend, Scouts, Cubs, Guides and Cadets etc too. The whole gamut of civic dignitaries can be there. The roads are quieter and can be temporarily closed if required.

Two different things but one dependent on the other.

[Mick F]

Why does the monarch have two birthdays?
One an accident of gestation, and the other so the state can put on a party at a good time of year and on a convenient day.
QE2 has her official birthday on the second Saturday in June.

[thirdcrank]

Why does the monarch have two birthdays?
One an accident of gestation, and the other so the state can put on a party at a good time of year and on a convenient day.
QE2 has her official birthday on the second Saturday in June.

But there's no pressure to Troop the Colour on both days.

[Mick F]

There's no pressure for a ceremony on both days either.
Last time I saw the 11/11/11 do in Tavistock, there was a group of people around the memorial with the vicar doing his stuff.
No band, no wreaths. Just a few people paying their respects.
Contrast that to Remembrance Sunday parade.

I'll bet QE2 has presents and family round on her birthday - and maybe a birthday cake - but the public aren't involved unless they want to congregate outside.

[Ben@Forest]

It's interesting to note that during at least some ceremonies at the Cenotaph in the 1920s there were demonstrations by injured serviceman who wanted to point out that, while honouring the dead, society was not spending enough on a decent living or a decent job for those who had been badly maimed or were disabled in WW1.

[thirdcrank]

Letter here in today's Daily T I don't know if it can be linked so I've copied it and offer it without comment.

Sir - Next year Armistice Day and Remembrance Sunday occur on the same day of the week - Sunday November 11. It is of course the 100th anniversary of the Armistice.

Wouldn't it be wonderful if the trading laws that apply on Christmas day and Easter Day were also applied on that day?

Those of who feel strongly could write to the major store chains in support of the idea. If one big name takes the moral high ground, others may well follow.

Rev Alan W Wright
Barton-upon-Humber, Lincolnshire.

Re the possibility of injured veterans demonstrating, they wouldn't get near. Wrong image, sorry, too great a security risk.

[NATURAL ANKLING]

Hi,

It's interesting and more than a little ironic to learn that the commemoration was moved from the anniversary - 11 November - to the nearest Sunday so as not to interfere with the war effort in in WWII.

That doesn't answer the OP's question about why we now "have both." I can see the reference to expense is controversial to the point of being offensive to the whole concept of remembrance, but there's still a valid question in there. meic's post goes some way to addressing this, but it's no longer simply two minutes of quiet reflection on 11 November.

Ok, I did not mean to cause offence (underlined above) maybe a bit naïve as to the fact we do have two different days armistice and rememberance sunday.

France has armistice as a public holiday and so do a few other countries, not the UK?

[NATURAL ANKLING]

Hi,
http://www.officeholidays.com/countries ... ce_day.php
"11 November has an older tradition that is, by coincidence, associated with war and peace. In the Christian calendar it was known as 'Martinmas' or St. Martin's day.
Martin was a Roman soldier who converted to Christianity, and because of his new found religion, refused to fight under a pagan flag. After leaving the army, Martin (ironically named after Mars, the Roman god of war) became a monk, rising up through the orders to eventually become a bishop in Gaul (modern day France). "

In Germany (no remembrance)
https://www.timeanddate.com/holidays/germany/st-martin
"Background
Saint Martin of Tours (316 - 297 CE) initially worked as a Roman legionary but was later appointed the third Bishop of Tours. According to lore, he was a modest and altruistic man. The legend about his saving a homeless person from freezing to death by giving him half of his cloak is known to children in all parts of Germany."

[pete75]

It's interesting to note that during at least some ceremonies at the Cenotaph in the 1920s there were demonstrations by injured serviceman who wanted to point out that, while honouring the dead, society was not spending enough on a decent living or a decent job for those who had been badly maimed or were disabled in WW1.

The government and establishment promised a land fit for heroes after WW1. They failed to deliver and things actually got worse for working class people during the 1920s and get even worse during the thirties. That's one of the main reasons Atlee won his landslide victory in 1945. He promised to make things better and he damn well did the NHS, universal benefits, the welfare state etc. By the early seventies Britain ended up as one of the most egalitarian societies in Europe. It's taken the Tories and new Labour almost 40 years from 1979 onwards to achieve any sort of meaningful dismantling of the changes made by and/or initiated by the Atlee government. Blair son of Thatcher and Cameron heir to Blair. For all their faults all three better than what we have now.