Is Trump Mad?

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Is Trump Mad?

yes
86
65%
no
35
26%
maybe
8
6%
maybe not
2
2%
dont know
2
2%
 
Total votes: 133

Stevek76
Posts: 655
Joined: 28 Jul 2015, 11:23am

Re: Is Trump Mad?

Postby Stevek76 » 14 Jan 2021, 1:22pm

thirdcrank wrote:Another thing that the Founding Fathers might not have anticipated was the way the growth of political parties has influenced the operation of the US Constitution. The judgment of an impeachment trial isn't improved by being made along party lines.


Strengthening of parties into being the main thing people vote for rather than loose collections of individuals is what is breaking our own system as well. But the party toothpaste ain't going back in the tube so we can't really do much about them other than to adapt the system to cope.

Pebble wrote: He got something like 70 million votes, more people voted for trump than for any other president ever (Biden won but many of his votes were not for him, they were anti trump)

The support for trump is like nothing ever seen before, and they are very very loyal.


I'm not sure that's the case, many of the trump votes were 'anti clinton' and/or 'anti socialist/communist'. Sure there's a significant minority that are very loyal to trump and very vocal about it but I'm not convinced anywhere close to all 70m are. Probably some polling about on this somewhere but don't have time to look, however I suspect it is similar to here (both with parties and also issues like brexit) in that the echo chambers of social media make people in them believe that the population is on average far more attentive, interested and invested in politics and current affairs and generally hold more extreme views than is actually the case.

Vorpal
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Location: Not there ;)

Re: Is Trump Mad?

Postby Vorpal » 14 Jan 2021, 2:39pm

Stevek76 wrote:I'm not sure that's the case, many of the trump votes were 'anti clinton' and/or 'anti socialist/communist'. Sure there's a significant minority that are very loyal to trump and very vocal about it but I'm not convinced anywhere close to all 70m are. Probably some polling about on this somewhere but don't have time to look, however I suspect it is similar to here (both with parties and also issues like brexit) in that the echo chambers of social media make people in them believe that the population is on average far more attentive, interested and invested in politics and current affairs and generally hold more extreme views than is actually the case.

The folks that I know who voted for Trump mostly did so on the basis of one or two issues. The main ones are abortion and 'drain the swamp'. Though I do know one person who voted for Trump because of Pence.

It honestly surprises me, though that more of them have not abandoned Trump. They believe him that he was cheated out of the election and still don't think he is any worse than any other politician. I asked one relative about the violence on the 6th, and he said something to the effect of he could understand them being angry, but it's wrong that they got carried away. He went on to compare them to BLM :roll:

Extremists may be in a minority, but it is a minority that has a surprising amount of popular support.
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom

kwackers
Posts: 15238
Joined: 4 Jun 2008, 9:29pm
Location: Warrington

Re: Is Trump Mad?

Postby kwackers » 14 Jan 2021, 3:25pm

Vorpal wrote:
Stevek76 wrote:I'm not sure that's the case, many of the trump votes were 'anti clinton' and/or 'anti socialist/communist'. Sure there's a significant minority that are very loyal to trump and very vocal about it but I'm not convinced anywhere close to all 70m are. Probably some polling about on this somewhere but don't have time to look, however I suspect it is similar to here (both with parties and also issues like brexit) in that the echo chambers of social media make people in them believe that the population is on average far more attentive, interested and invested in politics and current affairs and generally hold more extreme views than is actually the case.

The folks that I know who voted for Trump mostly did so on the basis of one or two issues. The main ones are abortion and 'drain the swamp'. Though I do know one person who voted for Trump because of Pence.

It honestly surprises me, though that more of them have not abandoned Trump. They believe him that he was cheated out of the election and still don't think he is any worse than any other politician. I asked one relative about the violence on the 6th, and he said something to the effect of he could understand them being angry, but it's wrong that they got carried away. He went on to compare them to BLM :roll:

Extremists may be in a minority, but it is a minority that has a surprising amount of popular support.

I think if you watch U.S TV it's incredibly right wing and a lot of the news outlets are very aggressively against anything even remotely "left".
So much so if you're a 'normal' yank you could be forgiven for thinking such folk are planning to destroy your way of life, take away your rights and force you to eat vegan cheese.

The power is all in the hands of the media and by association, billionaires and their mates.

It's better over here but not by much. Whatever you think of Corbyn you'd be hard pushed to dismiss much of the media coverage as anything but an assassination.

Oldjohnw
Posts: 5760
Joined: 16 Oct 2018, 4:23am
Location: Northumberland

Re: Is Trump Mad?

Postby Oldjohnw » 14 Jan 2021, 3:35pm

It appears that Trump has now fallen out with Rudi and is refusing to pay his bills as his personal lawyer.

Mind you, if Rudi advised me on the stuff he has advised Trump I think I might refuse to pay the bill.

Trump is increasingly isolated within the government. That may, of course, make an already unhinged individual ever more dangerous.

Is Trump mad? Mad as hell.
John

Vorpal
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Location: Not there ;)

Re: Is Trump Mad?

Postby Vorpal » 14 Jan 2021, 3:36pm

kwackers wrote:
I think if you watch U.S TV it's incredibly right wing and a lot of the news outlets are very aggressively against anything even remotely "left".
So much so if you're a 'normal' yank you could be forgiven for thinking such folk are planning to destroy your way of life, take away your rights and force you to eat vegan cheese.

The power is all in the hands of the media and by association, billionaires and their mates.

It's better over here but not by much. Whatever you think of Corbyn you'd be hard pushed to dismiss much of the media coverage as anything but an assassination.

My views are centre-left by most European reckoning. I used to be called a leftist greeny freak by my colleagues. Their basis for doing so was little more than that I am vegetarian, recycle, and wear Birkenstocks.
The weirdest thing about me to British colleagues was that I cycled to work sometimes. IMO, it's much better in the UK. The Democrats aren't much left of the Tories, and British people, do not for the most part proselytise about their politics.
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom

Ben@Forest
Posts: 2710
Joined: 28 Jan 2013, 5:58pm

Re: Is Trump Mad?

Postby Ben@Forest » 14 Jan 2021, 4:43pm

Vorpal wrote:The Democrats aren't much left of the Tories, and British people, do not for the most part proselytise about their politics.


Though there are a range of policies and beliefs which make direct comparison difficult l don't think mainstream Democrats are left of mainstream Conservatives. Democrats are influenced, however much they may dislike it, by fundamentalist Christians. Democrats will never implement (or continue) a socialised medicine system like the NHS. Democrats were not, and still are not, as united around the issue of gay marriage as the Conservatives. Democrats will never be as tough as the Conservatives on gun control.

Of course most political parties are a broad church and one can find left-leaning Democrats and right-leaning Conservatives. But l've seen little in American politics that would convince me the Democrats sit between Labour and the Conservatives.

thirdcrank
Posts: 30537
Joined: 9 Jan 2007, 2:44pm

Re: Is Trump Mad?

Postby thirdcrank » 14 Jan 2021, 4:50pm

Does anybody see any parallels with that earlier Boris - Boris Nikolayevich Yeltsin?

PDQ Mobile
Posts: 3975
Joined: 2 Aug 2015, 4:40pm

Re: Is Trump Mad?

Postby PDQ Mobile » 14 Jan 2021, 5:57pm

Ben@Forest wrote:
Vorpal wrote:The Democrats aren't much left of the Tories, and British people, do not for the most part proselytise about their politics.


Though there are a range of policies and beliefs which make direct comparison difficult l don't think mainstream Democrats are left of mainstream Conservatives. Democrats are influenced, however much they may dislike it, by fundamentalist Christians. Democrats will never implement (or continue) a socialised medicine system like the NHS. Democrats were not, and still are not, as united around the issue of gay marriage as the Conservatives. Democrats will never be as tough as the Conservatives on gun control.

Of course most political parties are a broad church and one can find left-leaning Democrats and right-leaning Conservatives. But l've seen little in American politics that would convince me the Democrats sit between Labour and the Conservatives.

I am not sure what you are trying to say here?
You don't mention Republicans at all.
Comparing the USA Democrats to the UK Tories is difficult, yet you compare them in terms of attitude to gun control for example. But that makes little sense given the differing levels of gun ownership and legal controls that exist either side of the Atlantic.
I always thought (Trumpian) Republicans were the stronger advocates of the enshrined right to bear arms.
Was Trump not financially supported by the "National Rifles" lot?

My view from afar is that Obama's stance WAS on many issues to the left of many (a majority?) of the IK Tory party.
And that Biden is likely to follow suit.
He has already stated his position on the Paris Accord and stated his desire to work closely with the EU.

Additionally are you saying the Democrats are the more influenced by fundamentalist or evangelical Christianity than the Republicans?
And that there is a divide across religious beliefs?

I suspect that to be so but really have no idea how profound the differences are.

Jdsk
Posts: 5212
Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: Is Trump Mad?

Postby Jdsk » 14 Jan 2021, 6:12pm

Here's Political Compass's analysis for the 2020 Presidential candidates and the UK parties:

Screenshot 2021-01-14 at 18.09.37.png

as usual if you open it in a new tab or window it becomes legible.

If you go to the original it's possible to compare with other countries:
https://qz.com/1748903/how-2020-us-democratic-candidates-compare-to-global-politicians/

Jonathan

Ben@Forest
Posts: 2710
Joined: 28 Jan 2013, 5:58pm

Re: Is Trump Mad?

Postby Ben@Forest » 14 Jan 2021, 6:19pm

PDQ Mobile wrote:You don't mention Republicans at all.


I didn't mention Republicans at all because the author of the post I replied to (an American) didn't mention Republicans. She was comparing Democrats to the Conservatives. If you want to expand it to the Republicans that's your prerogative. Do some more analysis!

PDQ Mobile
Posts: 3975
Joined: 2 Aug 2015, 4:40pm

Re: Is Trump Mad?

Postby PDQ Mobile » 14 Jan 2021, 6:31pm

Ben@Forest wrote:
PDQ Mobile wrote:You don't mention Republicans at all.


I didn't mention Republicans at all because the author of the post I replied to (an American) didn't mention Republicans. She was comparing Democrats to the Conservatives. If you want to expand it to the Republicans that's your prerogative. Do some more analysis!


Analise The Tories and the Republicans?
I fear I must leave that up to you.

I am more interested in the differences in the USA political parties.
The Religious bit particularly.

Fixed comparison across the "pond" seems difficult on account of factors already mentioned and more.

reohn2
Posts: 40665
Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: Is Trump Mad?

Postby reohn2 » 14 Jan 2021, 6:37pm

kwackers wrote:
Vorpal wrote:
Stevek76 wrote:I'm not sure that's the case, many of the trump votes were 'anti clinton' and/or 'anti socialist/communist'. Sure there's a significant minority that are very loyal to trump and very vocal about it but I'm not convinced anywhere close to all 70m are. Probably some polling about on this somewhere but don't have time to look, however I suspect it is similar to here (both with parties and also issues like brexit) in that the echo chambers of social media make people in them believe that the population is on average far more attentive, interested and invested in politics and current affairs and generally hold more extreme views than is actually the case.

The folks that I know who voted for Trump mostly did so on the basis of one or two issues. The main ones are abortion and 'drain the swamp'. Though I do know one person who voted for Trump because of Pence.

It honestly surprises me, though that more of them have not abandoned Trump. They believe him that he was cheated out of the election and still don't think he is any worse than any other politician. I asked one relative about the violence on the 6th, and he said something to the effect of he could understand them being angry, but it's wrong that they got carried away. He went on to compare them to BLM :roll:

Extremists may be in a minority, but it is a minority that has a surprising amount of popular support.

I think if you watch U.S TV it's incredibly right wing and a lot of the news outlets are very aggressively against anything even remotely "left".
So much so if you're a 'normal' yank you could be forgiven for thinking such folk are planning to destroy your way of life, take away your rights and force you to eat vegan cheese.

The power is all in the hands of the media and by association, billionaires and their mates.

It's better over here but not by much. Whatever you think of Corbyn you'd be hard pushed to dismiss much of the media coverage as anything but an assassination.

I heard someone on R4 this morning saying it's because of a lack local news in the US,I've no idea if he was right but he claimed(righly so IMO)that much of what you're saying,that all national media was owned by rightwing billionaires who are making out that people are under threat from leftwing commies who'll be making us all wear Mao suit,etc,etc.
Pretty much the same as in the UK in fact.
The media is owned by a few rightwing moguls who decide what goes out through their bent rightwing conduits is obvious,with two more recent rightwing media TV news stations,and let's forget who's just been appointed to head the BBC.
Spoon fed rightwing crap doesn't begin to describe the vast majority of media diatribe.....
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Ben@Forest
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Re: Is Trump Mad?

Postby Ben@Forest » 14 Jan 2021, 6:44pm

PDQ Mobile wrote:I am more interested in the differences in the USA political parties.
The Religious bit particularly.

Fixed comparison across the "pond" seems difficult on account of factors already mentioned and more.


And I agree and it was my opening line 'there are a range of policies and beliefs which make direct comparison difficult'. And it's about perception. I am sure US Democrats would say they want a 'national healthcare policy' but we know it would nothing like the form of 'national healthcare policy' that the UK (or Spain and Portugal) have. And the religious bit is exceptionally difficult to compare - the Democrats have to appeal to a wide range of people for whom religious belief is far more important than the electorate here.

reohn2
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Re: Is Trump Mad?

Postby reohn2 » 14 Jan 2021, 6:48pm

thirdcrank wrote:Does anybody see any parallels with that earlier Boris - Boris Nikolayevich Yeltsin?

In the sense of being a complete clown,yes without doubt.
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simonineaston
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Re: Is Trump Mad?

Postby simonineaston » 14 Jan 2021, 10:57pm

Two humourous quips I saw on YouTube comments today.
QAnon is just Scientology for the trailer park set.
There's a reason it's not called IQAnon
byyeee,
SiE