Is Trump Mad?

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Is Trump Mad?

yes
93
65%
no
36
25%
maybe
8
6%
maybe not
3
2%
dont know
3
2%
 
Total votes: 143

kwackers
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Re: Is Trump Mad?

Post by kwackers »

Psamathe wrote:In the news last week something I found particularly disappointing/depressing was Trump talking about the alleged murder of Khashoggi by the Saudi's.Whilst he put on his stern face and said how serious it was, he then went on to say how whatever happened the US would still be selling them arms because it's worth $100bn in trade. Seems to be a complete lack of any moral compass, no concept of "doing the right thing".

To me, things like this say far more about somebody than Trump says about himself (which I must admit does provide good comedy).

Ian

One (alleged) murder vs $100bn in trade?
It's not Trump, in this instance he's simply being honest; show me a single country that wouldn't do the trade.

(As a rule countries are entities without moral compasses.)
Bonefishblues
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Re: Is Trump Mad?

Post by Bonefishblues »

Would any other country act differently in that situation, I wonder? Remember Robin Cook's ethical foreign policy? No, nor do I.
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meic
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Re: Is Trump Mad?

Post by meic »

Would Obama have acted differently, would Hilary Clinton have acted differently?
Did Saudi Arabia start being nasty after Trump's election or did they have long, continuous, pre-existing form?
Yma o Hyd
Bonefishblues
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Re: Is Trump Mad?

Post by Bonefishblues »

100bn is a heavy price indeed to pay for principle :shock:
Psamathe
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Re: Is Trump Mad?

Post by Psamathe »

meic wrote:Would Obama have acted differently, would Hilary Clinton have acted differently?
Did Saudi Arabia start being nasty after Trump's election or did they have long, continuous, pre-existing form?

I have no idea about what Trump would have done, nor Clinton. I agree that Saudi have not just started being what they are but I do think it has been getting worse and more open, partly as their allies are unprepared to make any sort of stand about unacceptable actions. Had their allies said "no" and withdrawn their support then it likely would have had an impact on them.

But seems to me Governments around the world are getting more and more out of hand and something has to be done to bring things back in line. In the early stages of this particular issue when it was thought Khashoggi had been kidnapped and US/UK politicians were making a lot of noise I could not tell the difference between the Saudi's kidnapping somebody outside their country and the US/UK "rendition".

We seemed to have moved to a world where Governments don't even have to bother to hide what they are (trying) to do. They do it openly and then just stand up and briefly deny it and "''nuf said" and little happens.

To me it's another big step in the breakdown of the human race.

Ian
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meic
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Re: Is Trump Mad?

Post by meic »

Just 5 weeks worth of principle for the principled stance made by the British electorate a couple of years ago. :wink:
https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck ... ion-a-week
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Psamathe
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Re: Is Trump Mad?

Post by Psamathe »

Bonefishblues wrote:100bn is a heavy price indeed to pay for principle :shock:

Is it? It would be a very poor economy that has this technology and skill set and does not put that to alternative uses. Should be still be frantically mining coal because of the turnover it creates?

And the $100bn is trade, NOT profit. There are costs associated with that (i.e. turnover vs profit).

Ian
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meic
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Re: Is Trump Mad?

Post by meic »

Psamathe wrote:
meic wrote:Would Obama have acted differently, would Hilary Clinton have acted differently?
Did Saudi Arabia start being nasty after Trump's election or did they have long, continuous, pre-existing form?

I have no idea about what Trump would have done, nor Clinton. I agree that Saudi have not just started being what they are but I do think it has been getting worse and more open, partly as their allies are unprepared to make any sort of stand about unacceptable actions. Had their allies said "no" and withdrawn their support then it likely would have had an impact on them.

But seems to me Governments around the world are getting more and more out of hand and something has to be done to bring things back in line. In the early stages of this particular issue when it was thought Khashoggi had been kidnapped and US/UK politicians were making a lot of noise I could not tell the difference between the Saudi's kidnapping somebody outside their country and the US/UK "rendition".

We seemed to have moved to a world where Governments don't even have to bother to hide what they are (trying) to do. They do it openly and then just stand up and briefly deny it and "''nuf said" and little happens.

To me it's another big step in the breakdown of the human race.

Ian


Like the illegal presence of a whole load of Western forces in Syria?

the Saudi's kidnapping somebody outside their country

It is mostly claimed that this happened inside the Saudi Embassy, the USA always sees their embassies in other countries as being their sovereign territory, I thought that was the generally accepted norm in these things.
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Bonefishblues
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Re: Is Trump Mad?

Post by Bonefishblues »

Psamathe wrote:
Bonefishblues wrote:100bn is a heavy price indeed to pay for principle :shock:

Is it? It would be a very poor economy that has this technology and skill set and does not put that to alternative uses. Should be still be frantically mining coal because of the turnover it creates?

And the $100bn is trade, NOT profit. There are costs associated with that (i.e. turnover vs profit).

Ian

Yes, I think it is. A huge amount of money.
Psamathe
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Re: Is Trump Mad?

Post by Psamathe »

Bonefishblues wrote:
Psamathe wrote:
Bonefishblues wrote:100bn is a heavy price indeed to pay for principle :shock:

Is it? It would be a very poor economy that has this technology and skill set and does not put that to alternative uses. Should be still be frantically mining coal because of the turnover it creates?

And the $100bn is trade, NOT profit. There are costs associated with that (i.e. turnover vs profit).

Ian

Yes, I think it is. A huge amount of money.

It is. 100 times the amount of taxpayers money May paid to keep herself in power for a year or two. But then the US is a much bigger place. But then if our Governments started illegally importing and selling heroin I'm sure they could make a lot of money ... I'm sure ISIS, al-Qaeda, CIRA, Boko Haram, etc., etc. would welcome the opportunity to buy UK and US arms and I'm sure it would be very profitable.

Ian
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meic
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Re: Is Trump Mad?

Post by meic »

We would not wish to be associated with Saudi's killing innocent civilians just for the money.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/h ... 50206.html
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Bonefishblues
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Re: Is Trump Mad?

Post by Bonefishblues »

Psamathe wrote:
Bonefishblues wrote:
Psamathe wrote:Is it? It would be a very poor economy that has this technology and skill set and does not put that to alternative uses. Should be still be frantically mining coal because of the turnover it creates?

And the $100bn is trade, NOT profit. There are costs associated with that (i.e. turnover vs profit).

Ian

Yes, I think it is. A huge amount of money.

It is. 100 times the amount of taxpayers money May paid to keep herself in power for a year or two. But then the US is a much bigger place. But then if our Governments started illegally importing and selling heroin I'm sure they could make a lot of money ... I'm sure ISIS, al-Qaeda, CIRA, Boko Haram, etc., etc. would welcome the opportunity to buy UK and US arms and I'm sure it would be very profitable.

Ian

And that's the nub of international relations, isn't it, where lines get drawn, where influence is sought, who the good guys are and aren't - and those ones in the middle, who are the hardest of all.
Psamathe
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Re: Is Trump Mad?

Post by Psamathe »

Bonefishblues wrote:
Psamathe wrote:
Bonefishblues wrote:Yes, I think it is. A huge amount of money.

It is. 100 times the amount of taxpayers money May paid to keep herself in power for a year or two. But then the US is a much bigger place. But then if our Governments started illegally importing and selling heroin I'm sure they could make a lot of money ... I'm sure ISIS, al-Qaeda, CIRA, Boko Haram, etc., etc. would welcome the opportunity to buy UK and US arms and I'm sure it would be very profitable.

Ian

And that's the nub of international relations, isn't it, where lines get drawn, where influence is sought, who the good guys are and aren't - and those ones in the middle, who are the hardest of all.

Also the balance between self interest and the interests of others. Short term interests vs long term interests e.g. $100bn is a lot of money but the profit quickly ends up in the already excessively wealthy and but the long term damage to humanity is longer lasting. And include the costs of the aid and (emergency) relief necessary through the damage caused to populations. So many factors that I don't even think of it as $100bn, just wealthy individuals swelling their bank accounts whilst relief agencies seek emergency relief funding from the general western population.

Ian
Bonefishblues
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Re: Is Trump Mad?

Post by Bonefishblues »

You keep mentioning profit, but the economic activity associated with 100bn of trade is what employs however many thousands of people directly and indirectly. Dividends and capital accumulation is what keeps them and others in their old age. I don't think that can be characterised short term by any stretch of the imagination. I'm also unsure whether the relationship between said trade and aid is as binary as you might be interpreted as suggesting.
Psamathe
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Re: Is Trump Mad?

Post by Psamathe »

Bonefishblues wrote:You keep mentioning profit, but the economic activity associated with 100bn of trade is what employs however many thousands of people directly and indirectly. Dividends and capital accumulation is what keeps them and others in their old age. I don't think that can be characterised short term by any stretch of the imagination. I'm also unsure whether the relationship between said trade and aid is as binary as you might be interpreted as suggesting.

Plenty of alternative industries that those people could be employed in (ones that take humanity forward not backwards). Those same alternative industries can generate dividends and capital accumulation.

Quite apart from the moral considerations (selling $bns of weapons that will be used to kill innocent civilians) I don't regard the arms industries as serving humanity nor of being sustainable.

Why are we no longer developing and manufacturing chemical weapons? Very profitable/turnover/employment/capital accumulation/etc. Same with mining coal, etc. At some point we have to decide what is right. It's a question of degree but selling arms to countries that no longer even care what others think of their killing innocent civilians says as much about those allied to such countries as it does about the countries themselves.

Ian
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