Is Trump Mad?

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Is Trump Mad?

yes
93
65%
no
36
25%
maybe
8
6%
maybe not
3
2%
dont know
3
2%
 
Total votes: 143

Bonefishblues
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Re: Is Trump Mad?

Post by Bonefishblues »

Vorpal wrote:
mikeymo wrote:
Oldjohnw wrote:
I doubt there is any need for spurious law suits in this case. I would imagine there is plenty of real crime to work on.


Yes, quite possibly. Although your imagination is all you've got. As always, it's for the court to decide. And whatever you've read here or there will be tested as actual evidence in front of a real judge or jury.

I was commenting on Simon's clearly stated wish to use the law to eliminate a political opponent - "possible tactic", and "even if they all fail" etc.

As I said, and will repeat, spurious, or as m'learned friends might say, "frivolous and vexatious" use of the courts to blatantly target a political opponent in the hope of eliminating them as an opponent, rather than on the merits of the case, and especially if the imagined outcome is a lost case, is a very dangerous road to go down.

A series of failed legal cases against Donald Trump (which he has already demonstrated he has the support to finance, in terms of his defence) will make those pursuing those cases look at best foolish, and at worst corrupt, vindictive and manipulative. And of course will give Mr Trump the martyred victim status that will so increase the possibility of re-election, or maybe election of one of his family/supporters.

Don't get me wrong, if Donald Trump has committed crimes, then he should be sentenced to whatever is decided. However, it seems as though the Biden administration is both graceful enough not to pursue a course of vengeance, and wise enough to know that if they do that it would be counter productive, as I said.


Donald Trump was, just a few weeks ago pursuing spurious law suits in multiple states, trying to get votes thrown out. In his case, it was clearly a tactic. Most of the cases had no grounds even for a hearing. Those that were heard were not successful.

Donald Trump has committed crimes. I doubt he will ever face justice, though. At the most, he will be penalised for false statements on his taxes or something.

OTOH he seems to be running out of Lawyers who will defend him competently! But yes, I agree with the point - the main threats are economic, with, IIRC Deutsche Bank being the last of the major financial institutions to withdraw support. I sense that leaves him in a vulnerable position.
mikeymo
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Re: Is Trump Mad?

Post by mikeymo »

Vorpal wrote:Donald Trump has committed crimes.


A court decides if somebody has committed a crime. Not a poster on an internet forum.
mikeymo
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Re: Is Trump Mad?

Post by mikeymo »

Bonefishblues wrote:OTOH he seems to be running out of Lawyers who will defend him competently!


Indeed. Ship, sinking, rats, leaving. Re-arrange these words into a famous phrase or saying.

Rudy Giuliani was a disappointment to me. I didn't know much about him, but was aware that he'd been a senior lawyer, mayor of New York etc. "Maybe this chap will appear competent and talk intelligently" I thought, naively.
Psamathe
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Re: Is Trump Mad?

Post by Psamathe »

I do wonder if a bigger issue for Trump over the next few years will be repaying the massive loans for which he is personally responsible. I suspect that most lenders will now be avoiding him and those he owes money to will likely be wanting their money. And as I understand it this is money he has borrowed rather than his business.

Ian
Bonefishblues
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Re: Is Trump Mad?

Post by Bonefishblues »

Psamathe wrote:I do wonder if a bigger issue for Trump over the next few years will be repaying the massive loans for which he is personally responsible. I suspect that most lenders will now be avoiding him and those he owes money to will likely be wanting their money. And as I understand it this is money he has borrowed rather than his business.

Ian

That's what I was alluding to.
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simonineaston
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Re: Is Trump Mad?

Post by simonineaston »

The point about legal action is an interesting one. Every state uses their courts to control the actions of the citizens, indeed, that's the point. What separates the 'good' from the 'bad' use of such powers has got a lot to do with the independance of the judiciary. On the one hand you have folks in court for owning a walkie-talkie set, or in the case of Navalny, setting up as oppostion. They depend for a fair trial on the ability of the judges to interpret the law justly. In the case of Trump, we see the system creaking noisily as the Senate bottles it, due to political influences. Other courts and other judges may take a different view. Recall, too that the real power is held these days by the banks. The courts are all largely symbolic.
S
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Bonefishblues
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Re: Is Trump Mad?

Post by Bonefishblues »

I was with you until that last sentence.
Jdsk
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Re: Is Trump Mad?

Post by Jdsk »

Vorpal wrote:At the most, he will be penalised for false statements on his taxes or something.

That has always seemed most likely, and has the Capone analogy.

The Georgia electoral investigation has some interesting properties along the same lines. The prohibition of interference is specific and explicit.

And I don't understand why the emoluments case failed. Or perhaps that should read the first emoluments case...

Jonathan
Last edited by Jdsk on 17 Feb 2021, 12:12pm, edited 1 time in total.
Bonefishblues
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Re: Is Trump Mad?

Post by Bonefishblues »

Which case was that, for reference?
Jdsk
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Re: Is Trump Mad?

Post by Jdsk »

All three emolument cases that have been brought so far:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_lawsuits_involving_Donald_Trump#Lawsuits_around_the_United_States_Constitution

The Georgia investigation is described here:
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/10/us/politics/trump-georgia-investigation.html
and here's the notice to retain documents:
https://int.nyt.com/data/documenttools/letters-to-georgia-officials-from-fulton-district-attorney/70d7cbc8ba0ae1dd/full.pdf

“I just want to find 11,780 votes, which is one more than we have because we won the state... ”

Jonathan
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simonineaston
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Re: Is Trump Mad?

Post by simonineaston »

I was with you until that last sentence.
Let's watch what happens to Trump, Aung San Suu Kyi & Navalny, and when the courts have finished with them respectively, we can revisit the notion of whether or not they are symbolic. In each case, the real power lies elsewhere. More reason, if any where needed, to delight in living in Britain. Those dealt harshly by our courts may moan, but we can cheerfully point out with justification that although it might be a pain, at least it was a reasonably fair pain - unless you're one of the Guildford Four and Maguire Seven, say, in which case we're straying back towards symbolism again...
S
(on the look out for Armageddon, on board a Brompton nano & ever-changing Moultons)
Bonefishblues
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Re: Is Trump Mad?

Post by Bonefishblues »

simonineaston wrote:
I was with you until that last sentence.
Let's watch what happens to Trump, Aung San Suu Kyi & Navalny, and when the courts have finished with them respectively, we can revisit the notion of whether or not they are symbolic. In each case, the real power lies elsewhere. More reason, if any where needed, to delight in living in Britain. Those dealt harshly by our courts may moan, but we can cheerfully point out with justification that although it might be a pain, at least it was a reasonably fair pain - unless you're one of the Guildford Four and Maguire Seven, say, in which case we're straying back towards symbolism again...

You seemed to be couching it broadly and unconditionally, which is why I demurred.
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Re: Is Trump Mad?

Post by Vorpal »

mikeymo wrote:
Vorpal wrote:Donald Trump has committed crimes.


A court decides if somebody has committed a crime. Not a poster on an internet forum.

There is plenty of evidence in the public domain. Whether he can be convicted of anything is another matter.
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom
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661-Pete
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Re: Is Trump Mad?

Post by 661-Pete »

Vorpal wrote:
mikeymo wrote:
Vorpal wrote:Donald Trump has committed crimes.


A court decides if somebody has committed a crime. Not a poster on an internet forum.

There is plenty of evidence in the public domain. Whether he can be convicted of anything is another matter.
Legal processes are of necessity somewhat tortuous, but in this instance 'mm' is probably right: "innocent until proven guilty" is a powerful premise used in many countries. I recall, on my one and only turn of duty as a juror, we acquitted a defendant who, with hindsight, I think was guilty. In that case the phrase "beyond all reasonable doubt" was the driving factor: I think this term is no longer used in English criminal courts? Anyway, just as we were filing out of the courtroom after delivering our "Not Guilty", we heard the defence counsel talking about the defendant's 'previous'.... which of course we hadn't been told about.... :shock:

I remember, years ago, another none-too-brilliant prezzie, one Richard Nixon, inadvertantly prejudiced a much-publicised criminal trial, that of Charles Manson, by describing the defendant as 'guilty' in a public speech. He got a pasting for that and had to apologise.

My 2p worth. Sorry, Vorpal!
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thirdcrank
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Re: Is Trump Mad?

Post by thirdcrank »

In the modern era, is the system for impeaching a US President anything more than a glorified vote of no confidence?
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