File on 4: Degrees of Deception is on BBC Radio 4 on Tuesday 16 January at 20:00 GMT

Use this board for general non-cycling-related chat, or to introduce yourself to the forum.
reohn2
Posts: 45181
Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: File on 4: Degrees of Deception is on BBC Radio 4 on Tuesday 16 January at 20:00 GMT

Post by reohn2 »

mercalia wrote: you havent widened the subject you have completely changed it; talk a about topic drift

I'm responding to Ben's and TM's questions,thread drift,like Carillion's mess happen,the only thing is thread drift don't harm anyone,Carillionlike business practices on the other hand ruin ruin lives.
Anyway if it make you do feel any better I'll butt out.

PS, if you can't see the connection I can't help you.....
-----------------------------------------------------------
"All we are not stares back at what we are"
W H Auden
Ben@Forest
Posts: 3647
Joined: 28 Jan 2013, 5:58pm

Re: File on 4: Degrees of Deception is on BBC Radio 4 on Tuesday 16 January at 20:00 GMT

Post by Ben@Forest »

reohn2 wrote:UK governments don't seem to learn anything from their historic blunders and it's not as if there hasn't been any warnings of Carillion's diabolical business practices and mismanagement .Now the brown stuff has hit the fan it's the small businesses and thousands of individual Carillion workers who'll take the not insignificant hit,whilst top execs run away with huge six figure sum pay offs flapping out of their back pockets.
On the same program on Radio 2 they spoke to two more business owners,one who'd lost £25k and the other who'd cut there losses clearly last year and refused to do any more business with them due to the way they'd been treated by them and Carillion's profit warnings,both said thay could see the collapse coming a mile off,if they could see it why was the government still awarding them contracts instead of holding off until they sorted themselves out?
It's yet another classic UK business/government b*lls up as per usual,it was ever thus in this septic isle :twisted:


The government is almost damned if it does or doesn't. Awarding contracts might pull the company out of the mire they were in and set it on a surer footing - saving jobs. Having said that there seems little doubt the board were pocketing unearned bonuses and pay-offs.

Also apparently four contracts are said to have 'broken' Carillion, none of them was to do with the UK public sector and two were in the Middle East - so their financial condition had little to do with the UK government anyway.
reohn2
Posts: 45181
Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: File on 4: Degrees of Deception is on BBC Radio 4 on Tuesday 16 January at 20:00 GMT

Post by reohn2 »

Ben@Forest wrote:
reohn2 wrote:UK governments don't seem to learn anything from their historic blunders and it's not as if there hasn't been any warnings of Carillion's diabolical business practices and mismanagement .Now the brown stuff has hit the fan it's the small businesses and thousands of individual Carillion workers who'll take the not insignificant hit,whilst top execs run away with huge six figure sum pay offs flapping out of their back pockets.
On the same program on Radio 2 they spoke to two more business owners,one who'd lost £25k and the other who'd cut there losses clearly last year and refused to do any more business with them due to the way they'd been treated by them and Carillion's profit warnings,both said thay could see the collapse coming a mile off,if they could see it why was the government still awarding them contracts instead of holding off until they sorted themselves out?
It's yet another classic UK business/government b*lls up as per usual,it was ever thus in this septic isle :twisted:


The government is almost damned if it does or doesn't. Awarding contracts might pull the company out of the mire they were in and set it on a surer footing - saving jobs. Having said that there seems little doubt the board were pocketing unearned bonuses and pay-offs.

Also apparently four contracts are said to have 'broken' Carillion, none of them was to do with the UK public sector and two were in the Middle East - so their financial condition had little to do with the UK government anyway.

Before you do business with anyone you check their credentials.
Three profit warnings on the trot,a look at how the business was conducting itself,how it treated is subcontractors and workers generally.This company it seems was a tyrant to work for and do business with.
We're agreed the management should be hung up with the short and curlies, but they'll walk away keeping their bonuses and fat pay packets,they'll do that because they can and no one will change anything to stop it happening again,that's the problem.
Last edited by reohn2 on 17 Jan 2018, 11:27am, edited 1 time in total.
-----------------------------------------------------------
"All we are not stares back at what we are"
W H Auden
reohn2
Posts: 45181
Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: File on 4: Degrees of Deception is on BBC Radio 4 on Tuesday 16 January at 20:00 GMT

Post by reohn2 »

TM
Did you wake up this morning out of work and owed last month's pay packet?
Or were one of those small sub contractors owed five or six figures by Carillion with no chance of getting it,a workforce needing paying,and now needing alternative work finding?
-----------------------------------------------------------
"All we are not stares back at what we are"
W H Auden
ThePinkOne
Posts: 246
Joined: 12 Jul 2007, 9:21pm

Re: File on 4: Degrees of Deception is on BBC Radio 4 on Tuesday 16 January at 20:00 GMT

Post by ThePinkOne »

.... And don't forget the impact of the payment terms.....

If govt had MADE Carillon abide by govt "required" 30 day payment terms instead of the 120 days Carillon imposed, the losses to small suppliers would have only been a quarter of what they are..... For many, that is probably the difference between survival & going under.

Since being made redundant last year, I have my own consultancy business & the things I have seen re payment.... Not just T&C's but also invoice processing houses which are incentivised to find tiny mistakes to reject an invoice & delay payment another month......

This is when working for big contractors who provide stuff to public sector.

If payment dates metrics to prove compliance to govt fair 30 days payment terms were a "knockout" clause in bids for public sector work, the culture would change overnight. That is in govt capability to do, but I doubt they will, cos they don't care about the little people actually doing the work.

TPO
reohn2
Posts: 45181
Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: File on 4: Degrees of Deception is on BBC Radio 4 on Tuesday 16 January at 20:00 GMT

Post by reohn2 »

ThePinkOne wrote:.... And don't forget the impact of the payment terms.....

If govt had MADE Carillon abide by govt "required" 30 day payment terms instead of the 120 days Carillon imposed, the losses to small suppliers would have only been a quarter of what they are..... For many, that is probably the difference between survival & going under.

Since being made redundant last year, I have my own consultancy business & the things I have seen re payment.... Not just T&C's but also invoice processing houses which are incentivised to find tiny mistakes to reject an invoice & delay payment another month......

This is when working for big contractors who provide stuff to public sector.

If payment dates metrics to prove compliance to govt fair 30 days payment terms were a "knockout" clause in bids for public sector work, the culture would change overnight. That is in govt capability to do, but I doubt they will, cos they don't care about the little people actually doing the work.

TPO

I agree.
One of the people on the Radio 2 JV program mentioned that her company were told point blank by Carillion that she'd be paid in 120 days,and that if she wanted paying any sooner she'd have to pay Carillion a 10% early payment bonus! :shock:
Is this the way to do business in a civilised society?
-----------------------------------------------------------
"All we are not stares back at what we are"
W H Auden
Tangled Metal
Posts: 9509
Joined: 13 Feb 2015, 8:32pm

Re: File on 4: Degrees of Deception is on BBC Radio 4 on Tuesday 16 January at 20:00 GMT

Post by Tangled Metal »

reohn2 wrote:TM
Did you wake up this morning out of work and owed last month's pay packet?
Or were one of those small sub contractors owed five or six figures by Carillion with no chance of getting it,a workforce needing paying,and now needing alternative work finding?

No but 6 years ago I came into work after a week's holiday to be asked what I was doing there by the receivers. So I know how it feels to be in that situation.

Have you been in that situation BTW? If so did unions help much?

I mean the situation of one day in work the next out of work and not knowing what is happening it will happen next? It's easy to rant on about stuff like this scoring political points on a forum but do you know what it's like through personal experience? A sudden collapse of your employer? I mean lowly workers probably don't have the benefit of hindsight or financial information to know a bad situation was really close to the end of the company. A sudden shock and the fears of how you are going to get by.

Of course if you have been in such a sudden collapse (as far as company grunts go it'll probably seem sudden even if others knew the writing was on the wall) then I can understand your rants.
reohn2
Posts: 45181
Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: File on 4: Degrees of Deception is on BBC Radio 4 on Tuesday 16 January at 20:00 GMT

Post by reohn2 »

Tangled Metal wrote:
reohn2 wrote:TM
Did you wake up this morning out of work and owed last month's pay packet?
Or were one of those small sub contractors owed five or six figures by Carillion with no chance of getting it,a workforce needing paying,and now needing alternative work finding?

No but 6 years ago I came into work after a week's holiday to be asked what I was doing there by the receivers. So I know how it feels to be in that situation.

Have you been in that situation BTW? If so did unions help much?

Yes I have been in that situation where I was made redundant and my union NACODS,helped me a great deal,more than I imagined TBH.
EDIT:- I also know the feast and famine of self employment and waiting to be paid by customers who think it's ok to hang on to an invoice as long as possible before deciding to pay it.

I mean the situation of one day in work the next out of work and not knowing what is happening it will happen next? It's easy to rant on about stuff like this scoring political points on a forum but do you know what it's like through personal experience? A sudden collapse of your employer? I mean lowly workers probably don't have the benefit of hindsight or financial information to know a bad situation was really close to the end of the company. A sudden shock and the fears of how you are going to get by.
Of course if you have been in such a sudden collapse (as far as company grunts go it'll probably seem sudden even if others knew the writing was on the wall) then I can understand your rants.


I was one of that(despised by some)minority,a miner.
I knew what was happening as I'm guessing some Carrillion workers and execs were well aware.
Anyway what's your point?
Mine was that a badly managed company was allowed,nay encouraged,by government,to continue in those bad practices,even to the point of breaking laws that self same government had made,and which has resulted in many people losing their livelihoods, and causing instability in services and large civil engineering projects up and down the country,this isn't small potatoes.
Mine isn't about scoring political points it's about pointing to the huge elephant in the room,as is the OP's point about people using fake degrees to get jobs in the NHS.
It's possible to stop such practices by good checks and balances and people doing their job right,which seems sadly lacking in some quarters of UK business.A glance over the shoulder to the 2008/9 banking crisis shows what happens when top execs and key management are left to their own devices,but here we go yet again.
We could widen it a bit further and look at the disgraceful way in which tower blocks up and down the country were clad with inferior products like Glenfell tower was,the trace comes back to poor government.
YVMV!
-----------------------------------------------------------
"All we are not stares back at what we are"
W H Auden
ThePinkOne
Posts: 246
Joined: 12 Jul 2007, 9:21pm

Re: File on 4: Degrees of Deception is on BBC Radio 4 on Tuesday 16 January at 20:00 GMT

Post by ThePinkOne »

What is really needed is proper enforcement of the law and of apparent guidelines.

Grenfell Tower would not have happened if the law had been enforced properly (or even if there had been some on-the-ball procurement/contract management from the ITT onwards), and the 30 days payment terms is supposed to be mandatory where a big contractor (e.g. Carillion) is working on a govt contract- they are supposed to pay their suppliers at 30 days. There is a "fair payment" charter they have all signed up to. If they had been truthful in signing it (or been legally held to it), the difference to both the actual services and the small companies effected would have mitigated the Carillion collapse a lot- and in fact Carillion probably wouldn't have gone on so long.

I have a fair chunk of past experience working on "bid teams" writing bid proposals on public sector contracts; and it is starting to become a thing with some more aware Buyers to have "knock-out" questions in bids to get a basic level of service (e.g. on compliance with the law on such matters as Health & Safety and Equality Act)- basically if the potential providers cannot (evidence they can) meet the specified standard, they are out of the bid at the first stages. That way, that basic level is not over-ridden by cost considerations later on (which can otherwise happen with the scoring weighing of different elements).

So, the mechanism is there, and in the same way a tenderer can be asked for evidence of H&S stats and diversity info, equally they could be asked to provide evidence of fair treatment of their supply chain. After all, a well-treated supply chain gives a better service (at a better price- pricing for the "aggravation factor" of working for some big players is hardly unknown) so there is a valid justification, especially as the govt has a Fair Payment Charter. Also, Supply Chain Assurance is about the whole life of the contract- not just about the bid....... :wink:

Of course, in any tender, if you bid using false info, you can nullify the contract later on, so there are mechanisms to deal with that too.

What is lacking in all this is a level of what I will call "social integrity." It IS possible to have good public sevices provided by private companies, but the basic economics are that even if it's minimising the layers of supply chain, it's unlikely to be lower in price than a well-managed publically owned organisation. (The issue there is "well managed"). There's just as much poor management in the private sector, and anyone who thinks there's much in the way of consequence if a private sector manager screws up is sadly deluded (unless the manager is junior and being used as a scapegoat). Yes, there are some good companies out there- but "private good, public bad" is way over-simplistic, and a too-strictly doctrinaire position (either way) doesn't help us out of the mess we are in as a country.

I'm not against private sector- in fact often local SME/small specialist companies do fantastic things and provide really responsive services; but I also think that the key providers at a higher level should be publically owned and held properly accountable. Ideally, working with local small businesses, supportive and also more sustainable- keeps money in the local economy. I am dead against big conglomerates which use multi-layer subcontracting and off-shore their profits so pay little or no corporation tax, and pay mahoosive salaries to the top whilst squeezing the people who do the work.

Overall- the frameworks and mechanisms are there to deal with a lot of this. But it needs sustained will and some social integrity to do the right thing for the whole of our society in the long term; and I see too little of such social integrity left in public life these days.Yes, I know there will still be some tough working conditions in some places, but "two wrongs don't make a right" and poor conditions in one part of the economy don't justify imposing such across the board! We should be improving, not racing to the bottom.

JMO tho.

TPO
reohn2
Posts: 45181
Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: File on 4: Degrees of Deception is on BBC Radio 4 on Tuesday 16 January at 20:00 GMT

Post by reohn2 »

TPO
Thanks for the post,my thoughts exactly.
-----------------------------------------------------------
"All we are not stares back at what we are"
W H Auden
reohn2
Posts: 45181
Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: File on 4: Degrees of Deception is on BBC Radio 4 on Tuesday 16 January at 20:00 GMT

Post by reohn2 »

Better late than never :- http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-42763760 :roll:
-----------------------------------------------------------
"All we are not stares back at what we are"
W H Auden
landsurfer
Posts: 5327
Joined: 27 Oct 2012, 9:13pm

Re: File on 4: Degrees of Deception is on BBC Radio 4 on Tuesday 16 January at 20:00 GMT

Post by landsurfer »

Any chance of getting back on post please !
“Quiet, calm deliberation disentangles every knot.”
Be more Mike.
The road goes on forever.
reohn2
Posts: 45181
Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: File on 4: Degrees of Deception is on BBC Radio 4 on Tuesday 16 January at 20:00 GMT

Post by reohn2 »

landsurfer wrote:Any chance of getting back on post please !

Not a hope :wink:

Though I don't mind if the mods decide to split the thread :)
-----------------------------------------------------------
"All we are not stares back at what we are"
W H Auden
landsurfer
Posts: 5327
Joined: 27 Oct 2012, 9:13pm

Re: File on 4: Degrees of Deception is on BBC Radio 4 on Tuesday 16 January at 20:00 GMT

Post by landsurfer »

A few years ago my daughter, in her 30's, had an appointment at Rotherham General Hospital.
She asked me to accompany her as on a previous appointment she could not understand the Doctors spoken English.
At the hospital there where 2 doctors of "Asian Heritage" present.
Their command of spoken English was not good and they refused to talk to my Daughter directly and would only talk to me.
I insisted they talk to my daughter but they ignored me and still would only discuss her condition with me.

I entered a formal complaint to the Hospital.

3 months later i received a letter from the Trust apologising for mine and my Daughters experience and asking us to a meeting to discuss the Doctors performance.
The meeting was cancelled a week before it was due to take place as one of the Doctors had returned to Pakistan and was unable to be contacted, the other had also returned to Pakistan but additionally was under investigation as to their fitness to practice and qualifications.

It does make you wonder about checks on staff ... :roll:
“Quiet, calm deliberation disentangles every knot.”
Be more Mike.
The road goes on forever.
reohn2
Posts: 45181
Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: File on 4: Degrees of Deception is on BBC Radio 4 on Tuesday 16 January at 20:00 GMT

Post by reohn2 »

Says it all about standards in some hospitals :(
-----------------------------------------------------------
"All we are not stares back at what we are"
W H Auden
Post Reply