Have Britain’s imperial fantasies given us Brexit??

Use this board for general non-cycling-related chat, or to introduce yourself to the forum.
Post Reply

Have Britain’s imperial fantasies given us Brexit?

Poll ended at 10 Feb 2018, 9:07pm

Yes
31
78%
No
9
23%
Dont Know
0
No votes
 
Total votes: 40

landsurfer
Posts: 5327
Joined: 27 Oct 2012, 9:13pm

Re: Have Britain’s imperial fantasies given us Brexit??

Post by landsurfer »

All of my wifes family are "proper Cornish" in fact "Riddled with Cornish" .
They think any type of independent Cornwall is nonsense.
No industry, reliance on a weather based tourist economy, Initiative after after initiative failed.
Even a local MP suggested just giving every family in Cornwall £1M each as it would be cheaper than the countless money lost on the latest "One Cornwall" initiative.

We love the place, but retire there ..... no way ... have you ever been to the Royal Cornwall Hospital at Treliske !!!!
We stay in Redruth, if a grand child broke a leg there we would be off up the A30 to some real health care ... like a rat up an aqueduct.

But back to the op. ... No .... :D
“Quiet, calm deliberation disentangles every knot.”
Be more Mike.
The road goes on forever.
pwa
Posts: 17368
Joined: 2 Oct 2011, 8:55pm

Re: Have Britain’s imperial fantasies given us Brexit??

Post by pwa »

Have Britain's imperial fantasies given us Brexit? At a guess, everyone who thinks Yes is the answer to that is someone who voted Remain, and therefore is less qualified to speak about the motivations of Leave voters than the Leave voters themselves. People who think they know other people's minds better than they do themselves. What a clever lot you must be!
User avatar
661-Pete
Posts: 10593
Joined: 22 Nov 2012, 8:45pm
Location: Sussex

Re: Have Britain’s imperial fantasies given us Brexit??

Post by 661-Pete »

pwa wrote:Have Britain's imperial fantasies given us Brexit? At a guess, everyone who thinks Yes is the answer to that is someone who voted Remain,
Well then: that clearly indicates that, amongst those who answered this poll, an overwhelming majority supported Remain...
Suppose that this room is a lift. The support breaks and down we go with ever-increasing velocity.
Let us pass the time by performing physical experiments...
--- Arthur Eddington (creator of the Eddington Number).
pwa
Posts: 17368
Joined: 2 Oct 2011, 8:55pm

Re: Have Britain’s imperial fantasies given us Brexit??

Post by pwa »

661-Pete wrote:
pwa wrote:Have Britain's imperial fantasies given us Brexit? At a guess, everyone who thinks Yes is the answer to that is someone who voted Remain,
Well then: that clearly indicates that, amongst those who answered this poll, an overwhelming majority supported Remain...


Yes.
Vorpal
Moderator
Posts: 20700
Joined: 19 Jan 2009, 3:34pm
Location: Not there ;)

Re: Have Britain’s imperial fantasies given us Brexit??

Post by Vorpal »

Anyone who goes to visit stately homes, cathedrals, etc. sees the testament to empire. The lists of names of people who died in far flung places upon the wall at York Minster, the list of people who died in this war or that at Edinburgh Castle, a memorial plinth in the town centre...

It is difficult to live in the UK and not see these things, nor comprehend the empire that they memorialise. There may be many who simply don't know or care how many countries Queen Victoria married her children off to, but they know it happened.

But imperial fantasies? Of all the people I know and have known, I can only think of one that that describes.
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom
mercalia
Posts: 14630
Joined: 22 Sep 2013, 10:03pm
Location: london South

Re: Have Britain’s imperial fantasies given us Brexit??

Post by mercalia »

Vorpal wrote:Anyone who goes to visit stately homes, cathedrals, etc. sees the testament to empire. The lists of names of people who died in far flung places upon the wall at York Minster, the list of people who died in this war or that at Edinburgh Castle, a memorial plinth in the town centre...

It is difficult to live in the UK and not see these things, nor comprehend the empire that they memorialise. There may be many who simply don't know or care how many countries Queen Victoria married her children off to, but they know it happened.


do they? I bet the "awareness" is in one ear out of the other , other than some thing that forms part of their decision making.
Cyril Haearn
Posts: 15215
Joined: 30 Nov 2013, 11:26am

Re: Have Britain’s imperial fantasies given us Brexit??

Post by Cyril Haearn »

I plan to book a time machine to go back in time to visit Doggerland
I will also make a trip 30 years into the future (could just wait, I might live that long), to see how this awful mess is resolved :?
Entertainer, juvenile, curmudgeon, PoB, 30120
Cycling-of course, but it is far better on a Gillott
We love safety cameras, we hate bullies
Vorpal
Moderator
Posts: 20700
Joined: 19 Jan 2009, 3:34pm
Location: Not there ;)

Re: Have Britain’s imperial fantasies given us Brexit??

Post by Vorpal »

mercalia wrote: do they? I bet the "awareness" is in one ear out of the other , other than some thing that forms part of their decision making.

The environment in which we live informs our decision-making, whether it is conscious or not.

People like to feel that they and/or their group are better than others.

Peopl don't need to be specifically aware of the history to absorb the attitude. There was for several centuries an attitude that the British were bringing civilisation to the savages; modernising and industrialising peoples who would benefit from these endeavours. While there certainly was, in some cases, benefit, there was also oppression, profits, and war-mongering.

There are still people in the UK who feel that other countries have messed things up, and the British ought to go in and set things straight as they have done for so long.

Some of these cannot see that a diverse society is a natural outcome of the far-flung empire. You cannot have the empire and get rid of the immigrants. At least not without a return to the oppression of a century gone. Is that what they want?
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom
kwackers
Posts: 15643
Joined: 4 Jun 2008, 9:29pm
Location: Warrington

Re: Have Britain’s imperial fantasies given us Brexit??

Post by kwackers »

Vorpal wrote:
mercalia wrote: do they? I bet the "awareness" is in one ear out of the other , other than some thing that forms part of their decision making.

The environment in which we live informs our decision-making, whether it is conscious or not.

Funny isn't it how folk think they're above the social pressures that define how we think and who we are. Do they genuinely believe that the reason they behave and think like they do is because it's just right and not because it's socially imposed? How do they explain the vast differences in social behaviour between groups or other nations?

We might think we're above it but social conditioning is probably the most important external influence we have. It changes our concept of what's normal and mostly without us even thinking about it.

Society is the most important thing we have simply because we evolved to be social and society is what got us where we are.
The idea that we only make conscious decisions has been shown to be nonsense time and time again, for the most part we simply post rationalise our decisions believing they involve free will whilst underneath it all is a socially compliant chunk of our brain driving our behaviour and tweaking our thought processes.
Ben@Forest
Posts: 3647
Joined: 28 Jan 2013, 5:58pm

Re: Have Britain’s imperial fantasies given us Brexit??

Post by Ben@Forest »

Vorpal wrote:People don't need to be specifically aware of the history to absorb the attitude. There was for several centuries an attitude that the British were bringing civilisation to the savages; modernising and industrialising peoples who would benefit from these endeavours. While there certainly was, in some cases, benefit, there was also oppression, profits, and war-mongering.


This was far from being an exclusively British attitude. Look at the attitude of the Spanish conquistadors, the various French Empires and Republics and (though rather later in the 'game') - the newly unified German Empire. In fact the British Empire as you described it was rather a short-lived facet of its existence. The greater part of the British Empire was about commerce and not about subjugating peoples (as the Spanish, Belgians and Germans were especially fond of). The British Empire preferred systems of indirect rule whereby traditional leaders were retained in positions of authority under colonial oversight.

Read 'White Mughals' by William Dalrymple for an insight into the relationship between Indians and the British in the 18th and early 19th century. It was only later in the 19th century the 'them and us' attitude became more pronounced then more rigidly hierarchical, but this just didn't affect the British and Indians but also the myriad of social structures between the British themselves.

Of course the worst offenders in terms of 'bringing civilisation to the savages; modernising and industrialising peoples who would benefit from these endeavours. While there certainly was, in some cases, benefit, there was also oppression, profits, and war-mongering' and of course exterminating them and their way of life were the Europeans who settled America. The place which was really completely changed in the way a country lived and was populated was a former colony which got independence.
Vorpal
Moderator
Posts: 20700
Joined: 19 Jan 2009, 3:34pm
Location: Not there ;)

Re: Have Britain’s imperial fantasies given us Brexit??

Post by Vorpal »

Ben@Forest wrote:This was far from being an exclusively British attitude. Look at the attitude of the Spanish conquistadors, the various French Empires and Republics and (though rather later in the 'game') - the newly unified German Empire. In fact the British Empire as you described it was rather a short-lived facet of its existence. The greater part of the British Empire was about commerce and not about subjugating peoples (as the Spanish, Belgians and Germans were especially fond of). The British Empire preferred systems of indirect rule whereby traditional leaders were retained in positions of authority under colonial oversight.
I was not trying to argue that it was uniquely British. But the title of this thread is about Britain's imperial fanstasies, not Spain's or Germany's. As for not about subjugating people, perhaps not, but it was often a necessary evil in the name of profits. Or are you going to argue that was not what the East India Company did?

I'm not sure what you mean by short lived. The 'Age of Exploration' was the start of a capitalist race that impacted global civilisation. I'm not arguing that it was all bad, but it has hardly let up since. Both tactics and strategy have changed with time. But it is still about resources; gas and oil, rare earth elements, etc. Maybe the forgone generations did not use the phrase 'conflict resources' but they made an artform of profiting from them.
Ben@Forest wrote:Read 'White Mughals' by William Dalrymple for an insight into the relationship between Indians and the British in the 18th and early 19th century. It was only later in the 19th century the 'them and us' attitude became more pronounced then more rigidly hierarchical, but this just didn't affect the British and Indians but also the myriad of social structures between the British themselves.
As for Dalrymple, I've read and liked some of his stuff. I haven't read the book in question. I looked it up and sounds unusually romantic for Dalrymple. This rather lengthy piece by him for the Guardian says rather better what I was thinking about.

Ben@Forest wrote:Of course the worst offenders in terms of 'bringing civilisation to the savages; modernising and industrialising peoples who would benefit from these endeavours. While there certainly was, in some cases, benefit, there was also oppression, profits, and war-mongering' and of course exterminating them and their way of life were the Europeans who settled America. The place which was really completely changed in the way a country lived and was populated was a former colony which got independence.

The worst offenders? Was it any worse than what was done in Australia? New Zealand? South Africa? Palestine? Perhaps, and perhaps not. I do not deny the the United States did, and continues to do horrible things to the native population. What meaning does that have with regard to the question posed by this thread?
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom
reohn2
Posts: 45158
Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: Have Britain’s imperial fantasies given us Brexit??

Post by reohn2 »

Ben@Forest wrote:
Vorpal wrote:People don't need to be specifically aware of the history to absorb the attitude. There was for several centuries an attitude that the British were bringing civilisation to the savages; modernising and industrialising peoples who would benefit from these endeavours. While there certainly was, in some cases, benefit, there was also oppression, profits, and war-mongering.


This was far from being an exclusively British attitude. Look at the attitude of the Spanish conquistadors, the various French Empires and Republics and (though rather later in the 'game') - the newly unified German Empire. In fact the British Empire as you described it was rather a short-lived facet of its existence. The greater part of the British Empire was about commerce and not about subjugating peoples (as the Spanish, Belgians and Germans were especially fond of). The British Empire preferred systems of indirect rule whereby traditional leaders were retained in positions of authority under colonial oversight.

Read 'White Mughals' by William Dalrymple for an insight into the relationship between Indians and the British in the 18th and early 19th century. It was only later in the 19th century the 'them and us' attitude became more pronounced then more rigidly hierarchical, but this just didn't affect the British and Indians but also the myriad of social structures between the British themselves.

Of course the worst offenders in terms of 'bringing civilisation to the savages; modernising and industrialising peoples who would benefit from these endeavours. While there certainly was, in some cases, benefit, there was also oppression, profits, and war-mongering' and of course exterminating them and their way of life were the Europeans who settled America. The place which was really completely changed in the way a country lived and was populated was a former colony which got independence.

Cats can be skinned in a variety of fashions.
-----------------------------------------------------------
"All we are not stares back at what we are"
W H Auden
mercalia
Posts: 14630
Joined: 22 Sep 2013, 10:03pm
Location: london South

Re: Have Britain’s imperial fantasies given us Brexit??

Post by mercalia »

Vorpal wrote:
mercalia wrote: do they? I bet the "awareness" is in one ear out of the other , other than some thing that forms part of their decision making.

The environment in which we live informs our decision-making, whether it is conscious or not.

People like to feel that they and/or their group are better than others.

Peopl don't need to be specifically aware of the history to absorb the attitude.
There was for several centuries an attitude that the British were bringing civilisation to the savages; modernising and industrialising peoples who would benefit from these endeavours. While there certainly was, in some cases, benefit, there was also oppression, profits, and war-mongering.

There are still people in the UK who feel that other countries have messed things up, and the British ought to go in and set things straight as they have done for so long.

Some of these cannot see that a diverse society is a natural outcome of the far-flung empire. You cannot have the empire and get rid of the immigrants. At least not without a return to the oppression of a century gone. Is that what they want?


highy contentious statements. I think a truer view is the one if you dont know any history you may repeat the mistakes of the past ( the yanks are particulary the quilty parties here, they should have paid heed to the British Afghan Wars failures of the C19, and the more recent Soviet failure there). You should change the range of your statements from some people to most people to see the mistake. Of course out of 60M there are some who would think the way you suggest: I think most people dont want to waste money on forereign adventures - the only one I can think of that was popular in recent memory was the Falklands War. It was once said that Britain was a nation of shopkeepers, that was the bottom line not lauding it over other places. Even in the C19 I think Gt Britain didnt like to interfer in other places esp under Gladstone, who was slow to send troops to relieve Khartoum and save Gordon. India was ruled by the East India Company ( Clive of India was an East India Company man?); The interest in China was tea for opium, Australia dumping criminals. There were no Indian Wars in Canada unlike the USA. The Zulu wars only occured after the local admin in Natal wanted to extend its influence and messed it up so London had to intervene and send in 1000's of troops? Our military capability was more to police the business. In Europe It was all about balance of power. Britain never was into armies unlike Europe, ( armies could be used to put down dissent at home, our best was probably Wellingtons army of the Napoleonic wars ), but the Royal Navy was a differnt matter ( to protect overseas interests and to stop invasion - twice, firstly the Spanish then the French): You probably dont know this but one reason our navy was dominant for so long was it had ( very expensive) copper bottomed ( wooden ) ships that didnt allow barnacles to attach to the hulls, which meant they were faster and spent less time in dock to remove them. The "Empire" facade only became visible after Victoria was made Empress of India ( and that was as her lesser relatives in Europe had similar grandiose pretentious titles, a matter of face ): it was short lived and was on the wane round about the 1920-30s as it cost too much, and ordinary people started to demand a better quality of life. Maybe some or many of the white people who lived out side of Gt Britain in the colonies thought the way you say, but not those living in these islands, whose contact with the colonies would only be the tea or sugar they drank and only formed opinions when Indians and Africans settled here and seemed to compete with them for jobs etc? That fear is now the Eastern European "invasion"
pwa
Posts: 17368
Joined: 2 Oct 2011, 8:55pm

Re: Have Britain’s imperial fantasies given us Brexit??

Post by pwa »

I'm sure Vorpal is right to say that an ethnically diverse nation is a natural result of our Imperial past. And I suppose we can move on from that thought to suggest that true racists, who want to make Britain white again, are yearning for a simpler time when the UK had the benefits of Empire without having to take on board different cultures at home. But such people are a small segment of society. To most people they are a bad joke, a bunch of losers. They're not the mass of people who voted to leave the EU.

The Guardian has seemed to me for a long time now to be floundering and bewildered, unable to comprehend the support for Brexit. They don't get it. This suggested cause of Brexit is so wide of the mark that it is funny.
User avatar
Mick F
Spambuster
Posts: 56359
Joined: 7 Jan 2007, 11:24am
Location: Tamar Valley, Cornwall

Re: Have Britain’s imperial fantasies given us Brexit??

Post by Mick F »

landsurfer wrote:All of my wifes family are "proper Cornish" in fact "Riddled with Cornish" .
They think any type of independent Cornwall is nonsense.
Not the same sentiment from the Cornish people I know.
Mick F. Cornwall
Post Reply