Have Britain’s imperial fantasies given us Brexit??

[PH]

The Guardian comes out with a load of codswallop some times and this is one of them?

Did you actually read the article?
It's well articulated point of view, well referenced, with plenty of quotes from people in the know. If you're going to make a point of disagreeing, suggesting it's codswallop isn't much of an argument.
There is a gap between the UK's place in the world and some peoples perception of it, too many peoples views on history are formed by Holywood and our media is frequently jingoistic. Do you think all the referendum voters, on both sides, listened to all the debate and made an informed decision? It became an emotional decision when I'd have preferred it to be a practical or at least pragmatic one. I'd almost call it mob rule, but that would no doubt be dismissed as codswallop*

* Which BTW is a description of a soft drink used by beer drinkers - Are you suggesting the Brexiters were intoxicated?

[Cunobelin]

The Guardian comes out with a load of codswallop some times and this is one of them?

Did you actually read the article?
It's well articulated point of view, well referenced, with plenty of quotes from people in the know. If you're going to make a point of disagreeing, suggesting it's codswallop isn't much of an argument.
There is a gap between the UK's place in the world and some peoples perception of it, too many peoples views on history are formed by Holywood and our media is frequently jingoistic. Do you think all the referendum voters, on both sides, listened to all the debate and made an informed decision? It became an emotional decision when I'd have preferred it to be a practical or at least pragmatic one. I'd almost call it mob rule, but that would no doubt be dismissed as codswallop*

* Which BTW is a description of a soft drink used by beer drinkers - Are you suggesting the Brexiters were intoxicated?

Actually -Hiram Code invented a pressurised beer bottle and Codd's Wallop was a reference to weak or gassy beers

It was a much later transfer to soft drinks

[PH]

Actually -Hiram Code invented a pressurised beer bottle and Codd's Wallop was a reference to weak or gassy beers

It was a much later transfer to soft drinks

It's splitting hairs, the OD has it as;

Codd's wallop came to be used by beer drinkers as a derogatory term for weak or gassy beer, or for soft drinks.

[Mick F]

Last time I looked at an atlas Cornwall was part of England. Has it moved in the last couple of weeks?

It's never been part of England, though the English think it is.

England = Angle Land as in angles and saxons = Anglo-Saxon.

As it happens, I'm Welsh.

[661-Pete]

I'd already read the article, but upon seeing this thread I re-read it. Gary Younge is, as it happens, one of the most senior and respected journalists on the Guardian's staff. When he contributes an article it's worth taking note.

Of course it's possible that some have 'taken note' of other details....

The 'Leave' campaign was punctuated by slogans such as "Take back control". Indeed those words were even painted on the infamous 'bus'. Now, isn't that exactly what the old English (sic) empire-builders were up to? "Taking control" of the indigenous inhabitants of other countries, with or without their consent?

And now the Brexit-eers want to 'take control' of the 16-million of us who didn't vote for their cause. Without our consent or even consultation, of course...

I think Gary Younge has it spot-on. There may have been other, non-xenophobia-driven, purposes behind the Brexit agenda. But that's not the main driving force that induced ill-informed people to vote as they did.

In the 1970s we laughed and learned from Dads Army and Colditz
Later I visited Colditz, +1!
Now some of my best friends are German

You have the advantage over me, in a sense. I too - like most people - am too young to remember WW2. However, since childhood I have been acutely conscious of the fact that I never met any of my grandparents. The SS and Gestapo saw to that! For many years now I have been contemplating making a visit to Auschwitz-Birkenau. But I don't feel able to do so whilst the present fascist regime prevails in Poland. One day - before I die - I hope to...

On the other hand, like you I have no quarrel with any German people I know. I wish the same could be said of some Englanders....

[Phileas]

I voted yes (in this poll).

Given the close result it only required a small influence to cause Brexit.

[Cunobelin]

Actually -Hiram Code invented a pressurised beer bottle and Codd's Wallop was a reference to weak or gassy beers

It was a much later transfer to soft drinks

It's splitting hairs, the OD has it as;

Codd's wallop came to be used by beer drinkers as a derogatory term for weak or gassy beer, or for soft drinks.

Exactly .... came to be

The Oxford living Dictionary fully states:

The story goes that a man by the name of Hiram Codd patented a bottle for fizzy drinks with a marble in the neck, which kept the bottle shut by pressure of the gas until it was pressed inwards. Wallop was a slang term for beer, and Codd's wallop came to be used by beer drinkers as a derogatory term for weak or gassy beer, or for soft drinks.

This theory has appeared in Brewer's Dictionary of Phrase and Fable, but there are problems with it. 'Codswallop' is not recorded until the mid-20th century, rather a long time after Codd's invention, and there are no examples of the spelling Codd's wallop, which might be expected as an early form. These problems do not conclusively disprove the theory - it's conceivable that the term circulated by word of mouth, like many slang terms, and that the connection with Codd's bottle had been forgotten by the time the term was written down - but they do shed doubt on the tale.

A bit like BREXIT really, choosing only the part that suits as opposed to the whole picture

[PH]

Actually -Hiram Code invented a pressurised beer bottle and Codd's Wallop was a reference to weak or gassy beers

It was a much later transfer to soft drinks

It's splitting hairs, the OD has it as;

Codd's wallop came to be used by beer drinkers as a derogatory term for weak or gassy beer, or for soft drinks.

Exactly .... came to be

The Oxford living Dictionary fully states:

The story goes that a man by the name of Hiram Codd patented a bottle for fizzy drinks with a marble in the neck, which kept the bottle shut by pressure of the gas until it was pressed inwards. Wallop was a slang term for beer, and Codd's wallop came to be used by beer drinkers as a derogatory term for weak or gassy beer, or for soft drinks.

This theory has appeared in Brewer's Dictionary of Phrase and Fable, but there are problems with it. 'Codswallop' is not recorded until the mid-20th century, rather a long time after Codd's invention, and there are no examples of the spelling Codd's wallop, which might be expected as an early form. These problems do not conclusively disprove the theory - it's conceivable that the term circulated by word of mouth, like many slang terms, and that the connection with Codd's bottle had been forgotten by the time the term was written down - but they do shed doubt on the tale.

A bit like BREXIT really, choosing only the part that suits as opposed to the whole picture

I really don't know what you're arguing?

The Oxford living Dictionary fully states:

The story goes that a man by the name of Hiram Codd patented a bottle for fizzy drinks with a marble in the neck,

If you're going to be so exact, first get it right (We don't know the nature of the fizzy drink it started with) and second spell their name right.
I wish I hadn't started, it was a minor aside that came up in a recent pub quiz. I should have said it was a term used by those drinking an intoxicating drink about one that wasn't... though no doubt you'll have some problem with that as well.

[Cyril Haearn]

I'd already read the article, but upon seeing this thread I re-read it. Gary Younge is, as it happens, one of the most senior and respected journalists on the Guardian's staff. When he contributes an article it's worth taking note.

Of course it's possible that some have 'taken note' of other details....

The 'Leave' campaign was punctuated by slogans such as "Take back control". Indeed those words were even painted on the infamous 'bus'. Now, isn't that exactly what the old English (sic) empire-builders were up to? "Taking control" of the indigenous inhabitants of other countries, with or without their consent?

And now the Brexit-eers want to 'take control' of the 16-million of us who didn't vote for their cause. Without our consent or even consultation, of course...

I think Gary Younge has it spot-on. There may have been other, non-xenophobia-driven, purposes behind the Brexit agenda. But that's not the main driving force that induced ill-informed people to vote as they did.

In the 1970s we laughed and learned from Dads Army and Colditz
Later I visited Colditz, +1!
Now some of my best friends are German

You have the advantage over me, in a sense. I too - like most people - am too young to remember WW2. However, since childhood I have been acutely conscious of the fact that I never met any of my grandparents. The SS and Gestapo saw to that! For many years now I have been contemplating making a visit to Auschwitz-Birkenau. But I don't feel able to do so whilst the present fascist regime prevails in Poland. One day - before I die - I hope to...

On the other hand, like you I have no quarrel with any German people I know. I wish the same could be said of some Englanders....

I did visit Bergen-Belsen many years ago, Sachsenhausen near Berlin is worth a visit, upside: nearby is an utopian colony, Eden (+1)
The Germans are very conscious of history, there was recently a suggestion that all schoolchildren should be compelled to visit a KZ. Many do already
A recent drama-documentary film: 'Die Unsichtbaren, wir wollen leben' was v good, about Jews who survived WW2 in Berlin
60+ years later one of them recounted how young people now could not imagine Germans being nasty
One of the survivors, Cioma Schoenhaus, cycled to Switzerland at the end of the war and lived there happily ever after
Just like the Churchill film there were funny bits, that is done for commercial reasons too

[pete75]

Last time I looked at an atlas Cornwall was part of England. Has it moved in the last couple of weeks?

It's never been part of England, though the English think it is.

England = Angle Land as in angles and saxons = Anglo-Saxon.

As it happens, I'm Welsh.

People think it's part of England because it has been for about a thousand years.

[PH]

Last time I looked at an atlas Cornwall was part of England. Has it moved in the last couple of weeks?

It's never been part of England, though the English think it is.

England = Angle Land as in angles and saxons = Anglo-Saxon.

As it happens, I'm Welsh.

Is the idea of a Welsh nation any older than an English one that includes Cornwall?
In the end we're all just Europeans

[mercalia]

The Guardian comes out with a load of codswallop some times and this is one of them?

Did you actually read the article?
It's well articulated point of view, well referenced, with plenty of quotes from people in the know. If you're going to make a point of disagreeing, suggesting it's codswallop isn't much of an argument.
There is a gap between the UK's place in the world and some peoples perception of it, too many peoples views on history are formed by Holywood and our media is frequently jingoistic. Do you think all the referendum voters, on both sides, listened to all the debate and made an informed decision? It became an emotional decision when I'd have preferred it to be a practical or at least pragmatic one. I'd almost call it mob rule, but that would no doubt be dismissed as codswallop*

* Which BTW is a description of a soft drink used by beer drinkers - Are you suggesting the Brexiters were intoxicated?

yes I did. and still think its a load of some thing. The people who voted to leave didnt mourne the loss of empire ( which most probably cant remember if they could possibly remember it at all) I dont think that many made an informed decision, whatever, it wasnt one based on a glorious past of EMPIRE but some thing else maybe some thing quite superficial irrational maybe that fuels mob rule as you put it, but it aint anything to do with what a glorious past we had ( by the way the yanks later regretted putting a stop to the Anglo-French taking back the suez canal ) The guardian journalist made the mistake (that many intellectuals make), I think, that most people make decisions based on reasons and so had to find a reason in "the glorious past of Gt Britain" So I almost agree with your mobrule notion, but thats not what the guardian journalist was saying? He was rationalising the irrational to make it fit into his tidy universe: he should have known better, I almost think he was thinking "hmm I have a 500 words article to write what can I say that no one has said before". There is a line of thought he didnt consider the real and genuine hate for the conservative govt and they way they were spreading doom - the smug face of Osbourne and Cameron, faces to detest and disbelieve if ever there were ones? I wonder how many people believe people they respect and disbelieve those they dont? I wonder if many leavers thought that we would just be ok if we left the EU rather than sink into the pits of hell that were being described. Hardly new ideas?

[ambodach]

It is actually quite good that you keep referring to England instead of Britain or UK. Every time you do it the SNP vote goes up by a few more. Keep it up.

[Cunobelin]

It's splitting hairs, the OD has it as;

Exactly .... came to be

The Oxford living Dictionary fully states:

The story goes that a man by the name of Hiram Codd patented a bottle for fizzy drinks with a marble in the neck, which kept the bottle shut by pressure of the gas until it was pressed inwards. Wallop was a slang term for beer, and Codd's wallop came to be used by beer drinkers as a derogatory term for weak or gassy beer, or for soft drinks.

This theory has appeared in Brewer's Dictionary of Phrase and Fable, but there are problems with it. 'Codswallop' is not recorded until the mid-20th century, rather a long time after Codd's invention, and there are no examples of the spelling Codd's wallop, which might be expected as an early form. These problems do not conclusively disprove the theory - it's conceivable that the term circulated by word of mouth, like many slang terms, and that the connection with Codd's bottle had been forgotten by the time the term was written down - but they do shed doubt on the tale.

A bit like BREXIT really, choosing only the part that suits as opposed to the whole picture

I really don't know what you're arguing?

The Oxford living Dictionary fully states:

The story goes that a man by the name of Hiram Codd patented a bottle for fizzy drinks with a marble in the neck,

If you're going to be so exact, first get it right (We don't know the nature of the fizzy drink it started with) and second spell their name right.
I wish I hadn't started, it was a minor aside that came up in a recent pub quiz. I should have said it was a term used by those drinking an intoxicating drink about one that wasn't... though no doubt you'll have some problem with that as well.

It is exactly like Brexit

That is why I posted contradictory versions from the same source.... if we believe the sources the fizzy drink was lemonade.... or was it beer as another claimed?


One "authority" says one thing, another says that is wrong and therefore they are unequivocally right with demand that others "get it right" when both versions are equally valid (or invalid) . Then another "authority"points out that neither is right (or wrong) as we really have no idea what is the correct answer. (Some even claim that is was Tony Hancock's script writers who coined the phrase codswallop, or even a corruption of the 1930's phase "hops and wallop"!)

Substitute the NHS Bus for the bottle and we have the ideal analogy...



No-one really knew who was right, who was wrong, or even what they were voting for when the "Referendum" was held, it was as with the bottle, simply believing the version that fitted your own personal agenda and telling others that your version is right

[PH]

That is why I posted contradictory versions from the same source....

I think I've got stuck in a Monty Python sketch and I don't really want to play anymore, your comparison with the bus would be like arguing if it was £350 million or a fiver less. Fizzy drink or weak beer, they're close enough to be the same for no one to care.