Should Enoch Powell get a blue plaque ( in Wolverhamton)?

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Should Enoch Powell get a blue plaque ( in Wolverhamton)?

Poll ended at 22 Feb 2018, 7:25pm

Yes
18
56%
No
14
44%
Dont know
0
No votes
 
Total votes: 32

Mike Sales
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Re: Should Enoch Powell get a blue plaque ( in Wolverhamton)?

Post by Mike Sales »

thirdcrank wrote:I think it's important to remember the context in which Powell was operating. It would be wrong to believe that everything was hunky-dory in this connection and it was only he who turned it nasty. Hands up everybody who can remember the name of Harold Wilson's "parliamentary leper."

You make a good point. I could not remember Wilson calling him a leper, my excuse being that I am a little younger than you (I think). When I searched I found Peter Griffiths and Smethwick byelection which did ring bells.
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Thornyone
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Re: Should Enoch Powell get a blue plaque ( in Wolverhamton)?

Post by Thornyone »

Mike Sales wrote:It should not be forgotten that the ancestors of the Windrush generation were kidnapped as slaves and taken across the Atlantic to make money for the British.

This would be more accurate if you’d written “some of the British”. At the time of the slave trade a great many of “the British” were also living in near-slavery. After all, this was the era of (white) child chimney sweeps and exploited labour (including child labour) in e.g. the textile mills. It was also the era when men could be kidnapped to perform naval service and a time when poor whites could face being transported to the other side of the world for what would now be deemed very minor criminality. I doubt whether many of these poorer individuals would have felt that they were living off the labour of African slaves. Of course, given that the policies of middle class politicians led to immigration having a disproportionately greater effect on the lowest classes of British society, often impacting on their way of life in a far more direct way than it impacted the ruling class, it is inconvenient to acknowledge this fact. It is also inconvenient to acknowledge that Arab traders and some black Africans too, were major players in the black slave trade. (Please note that I am not an apologist for slavery, and I also think that the recent treatment of the Windrush immigrants currently in the spotlight, has been appalling).
Mike Sales
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Re: Should Enoch Powell get a blue plaque ( in Wolverhamton)?

Post by Mike Sales »

Thornyone wrote:
Mike Sales wrote:It should not be forgotten that the ancestors of the Windrush generation were kidnapped as slaves and taken across the Atlantic to make money for the British.

This would be more accurate if you’d written “some of the British”. At the time of the slave trade a great many of “the British” were also living in near-slavery. After all, this was the era of (white) child chimney sweeps and exploited labour (including child labour) in e.g. the textile mills. It was also the era when men could be kidnapped to perform naval service and a time when poor whites could face being transported to the other side of the world for what would now be deemed very minor criminality. I doubt whether many of these poorer individuals would have felt that they were living off the labour of African slaves. Of course, given that the policies of middle class politicians led to immigration having a disproportionately greater effect on the lowest classes of British society, often impacting on their way of life in a far more direct way than it impacted the ruling class, it is inconvenient to acknowledge this fact. It is also inconvenient to acknowledge that Arab traders and some black Africans too, were major players in the black slave trade. (Please note that I am not an apologist for slavery, and I also think that the recent treatment of the Windrush immigrants currently in the spotlight, has been appalling).


I agree with most of what you say, and indeed thought of making your main point, but I felt that a full account of the slave trade might be a bit too much for an internet posting. One of my thoughts which I nearly put down, was that my ancestors of whom I have knowledge were colliers (those digging, not those profiting) and saw little money from the slave trade.
There is a distinction worth making between African and Arab slavery, and what we did. Slaves in Africa were within a social system they knew, and though no doubt there was cruelty, it does not compare with being wrenched into another world, with a very high mortality on the way, and vile treatment in the plantations.
The triangular trade was one of the ways in which Britain exploited other countries, and the capital gained was part of the foundation of our economic success, and our present relative wealth. Even the descendants of coal miners have benefited.
Last edited by Mike Sales on 22 Apr 2018, 4:56pm, edited 1 time in total.
It's the same the whole world over
It's the poor what gets the blame
It's the rich what gets the pleasure
Isn't it a blooming shame?
thirdcrank
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Joined: 9 Jan 2007, 2:44pm

Re: Should Enoch Powell get a blue plaque ( in Wolverhamton)?

Post by thirdcrank »

If anybody is interested in reading about the history of black people in Britain, I'd recommend Staying power: the history of black people in Britain

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Staying-Power- ... 074533072X

There's a lot to go at - 632pp including appendix, notes and index - but it seems really comprehensive. The author, Peter Fryer, was a reporter sent to cover the arrival of the Empire Windrush seventy years ago and he developed an interest after that which led to the publication of this book.
Thornyone
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Re: Should Enoch Powell get a blue plaque ( in Wolverhamton)?

Post by Thornyone »

Mike Sales wrote:I agree with most of what you say, and indeed thought of making your main point, but I feel that a full account of the slave trade might be a bit too much for an internet posting. One of my thoughts which I nearly put down, was that my ancestors of which I have knowledge were colliers (those digging, not those profiting) and saw little money from the slave trade.
There is a distinction worth making between African and Arab slavery, and what we did. Slaves in Africa were within a social system they knew, and though no doubt there was cruelty, it does not compare with being wrenched into another world, with a very high mortality on the way, and vile treatment in the plantations.
The triangular trade was one of the ways in which Britain exploited other countries, and the capital gained was part of the foundation of our economic sucess, and our present relative wealth. Even the descendants of coal miners have benefited.

I thought it was worth making my point because the suggestion that all Brits lived off the back of slaves is a convenient fiction of the ruling elite which diverts attention from their guilt.
I wouldn’t want to suggest a direct equivalence with the British treatment of black Africans, but North African Arab slavers did seize slaves in the British Isles, who were taken to a totally alien environment. It is also worth remembering that slaves still exist in places in India, for example, despite the fact that independance was gained in 1947, and much of the modern slavery currently to be found in the UK is perpetrated by non-Brits. Furthermore, the anti-slavery movement in England was largely built by principled non-conformist Christians. I also think it is right that we maintain foreign aid and oppose those who argue that we “can’t afford” it.
Mike Sales
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Re: Should Enoch Powell get a blue plaque ( in Wolverhamton)?

Post by Mike Sales »

Thornyone wrote:I wouldn’t want to suggest a direct equivalence with the British treatment of black Africans, but North African Arab slavers did seize slaves in the British Isles, who were taken to a totally alien environment. It is also worth remembering that slaves still exist in places in India, for example, despite the fact that independance was gained in 1947, and much of the modern slavery currently to be found in the UK is perpetrated by non-Brits. Furthermore, the anti-slavery movement in England was largely built by principled non-conformist Christians. I also think it is right that we maintain foreign aid and oppose those who argue that we “can’t afford” it.

The topic of slavery is a very large one, and I was not attempting a full survey. Neither was I attempting a full reckoning of the blame. I was mentioning some facts I thought salient about how the Windrush generation (a new name, and useful) came to be here.
These facts seemed to be unknown to a man with a reputation for learning. Powell may have been a good classicist, but he was either ignorant of some of the history of the British Empire, or chose to ignore it. I see this as shabby from a reputed scholar.
It has just occured to me that man who could quote from Latin and Ancient Greek authors might have had some thoughts about slavery. The Roman Empire was capable of great savagery.
It's the same the whole world over
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Cyril Haearn
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Re: Should Enoch Powell get a blue plaque ( in Wolverhamton)?

Post by Cyril Haearn »

Anyone from Kingston upon Hull care to comment on Wilberforce? Is it true that the slave-"owners" were financially compensated?
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Mike Sales
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Re: Should Enoch Powell get a blue plaque ( in Wolverhamton)?

Post by Mike Sales »

Cyril Haearn wrote:Is it true that the slave-"owners" were financially compensated?
.
I believe so, unlike the ex-slaves
It's the same the whole world over
It's the poor what gets the blame
It's the rich what gets the pleasure
Isn't it a blooming shame?
thirdcrank
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Re: Should Enoch Powell get a blue plaque ( in Wolverhamton)?

Post by thirdcrank »

I don't thing you need to be from Hull to appreciate the importance of William Wilberforce.

I would say that there is a small but valuable museum in Hull at his former home.

http://museumcollections.hullcc.gov.uk/ ... hp?irn=159

I don't know what it's like today, but I went as a child when we used to have friends living in the city. Some of the exhibits were hard for a child to take in, like the documents and the model of a slave transport ship with diagrams of the cramped accommodation, but I particularly remembember among all the shackles an iron collar with four long arms, each with hooks at the end so the if the wearer tried to escape through trees and bushes they would become entangled. Also the branding irons, some of which were made of silver because it was believed that branding somebody with a silver branding "iron" inflicted less pain.
Mike Sales
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Re: Should Enoch Powell get a blue plaque ( in Wolverhamton)?

Post by Mike Sales »

thirdcrank wrote:Also the branding irons, some of which were made of silver because it was believed that branding somebody with a silver branding "iron" inflicted less pain.


How very humane!
It's the same the whole world over
It's the poor what gets the blame
It's the rich what gets the pleasure
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bovlomov
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Re: Should Enoch Powell get a blue plaque ( in Wolverhamton)?

Post by bovlomov »

Cyril Haearn wrote:Is it true that the slave-"owners" were financially compensated?


There was a recent discussion here about William Gladstone
He gave his maiden speech to the House of Commons on 3 June 1833, using it to defend the interests of the West Indian slave-owning plantation owners. Although he did not support the continuation of slavery, he was not vocal in demanding its abolition. Instead, he fought for a ‘fair deal’ for West Indian planters whose economic prosperity relied on slavery.

John Gladstone received £93,526 from the British Government for his 2,039 slaves and both father and son were active in securing compensation for others. His biggest claims came for his ‘possessions’ in British Guyana, claims that represented 1,309 slaves for which he received £69,111.

New Hawarden Castle and the estate is still in the hands of the Gladstone family. The current owner Charlie Gladstone is a music promoter (ex manager of The Charlatans and They Might Be Giants), who puts on a civilised music festival at the castle every year. He has a couple of castles in Scotland as well.

I read an article recently (can't remember where) claiming that the UK taxpayer was still paying that compensation bill right up until the 1970s, and that the slave owning families still own huge swathes of the country, largely paid for out of the compensation money.

EDIT: This is how the Mirror sees it. They say the bill was finally paid off in 2015.
Cyril Haearn
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Re: Should Enoch Powell get a blue plaque ( in Wolverhamton)?

Post by Cyril Haearn »

pwa wrote:I'd say no. For the same reason that putting a statue of Thatcher in a public place is a bad idea. It is too divisive. It offends too many people.

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Hobbs1951
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Re: Should Enoch Powell get a blue plaque ( in Wolverhamton)?

Post by Hobbs1951 »

I'm not sure how I feel about a blue plaque for Enoch Powell (1912-1998). However, most remember him (if they remember him at all or study these things) for his Rivers of Blood speech in 1968.

We must view this within the context of race relations at the time and the racist attitudes of the Conservative party; I refer to the 1964 General Election and the Smethwick seat. The Conservatives were widely reported at the time and vilified for using the slogan if you want a nigger for a neighbour vote Labour.

John.
pwa
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Re: Should Enoch Powell get a blue plaque ( in Wolverhamton)?

Post by pwa »

Hobbs1951 wrote:I'm not sure how I feel about a blue plaque for Enoch Powell (1912-1998). However, most remember him (if they remember him at all or study these things) for his Rivers of Blood speech in 1968.

We must view this within the context of race relations at the time and the racist attitudes of the Conservative party; I refer to the 1964 General Election and the Smethwick seat. The Conservatives were widely reported at the time and vilified for using the slogan if you want a nigger for a neighbour vote Labour.

John.

We can't change history and these things happened. But a blue plaque is seen partly as celebration rather than just stating a fact, so I'd give it a miss to avoid the danger of it being seen as excusing or even condoning something that most people regret.
Dafydd17
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Re: Should Enoch Powell get a blue plaque ( in Wolverhamton)?

Post by Dafydd17 »

Cyril Haearn wrote:
pwa wrote:I'd say no. For the same reason that putting a statue of Thatcher in a public place is a bad idea. It is too divisive. It offends too many people.

Viel Feind, Viel Ehr
(German)
She who has many enemies, has many friends :wink:


Wot was the point of resurrecting this - were you just bored?
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