Should Enoch Powell get a blue plaque ( in Wolverhamton)?

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Should Enoch Powell get a blue plaque ( in Wolverhamton)?

Poll ended at 22 Feb 2018, 7:25pm

Yes
18
56%
No
14
44%
Dont know
0
No votes
 
Total votes: 32

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bovlomov
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Re: Should Enoch Powell get a blue plaque ( in Wolverhamton)?

Post by bovlomov »

reohn2 wrote:Yep a bunch of incompetents becoming more incompetent seemingly by the day.
You couldn't make it up as,they say....

Incompetent in one sense, but the policy was executed quite competently, exactly as it was intended.
thirdcrank
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Re: Should Enoch Powell get a blue plaque ( in Wolverhamton)?

Post by thirdcrank »

Let's remember that this is the culmination of events which date from 70 years ago, so there have been plenty of Home Secretaries served by plenty of permanent secretaries during that time. TM was appointed Home Secretary in 2010 and is said to have been the longest postholder in history. It's a matter of what happened "on her watch." eg It's currently being reported that the Home Office destroyed landing cards in 2010. I'd be interested to know if that was as part of some different cellar clearing exercise or something rather more sinister. The date when it happened might be helpful. (Edit: even the Daily Telegraph is now reporting that this happened when TM was Home Secretary.)

Let's also remember the political background in 2010 and subsequently. The big threat to the Tories was perceived to be UKIP. Austerity was the key word for any ministerial initiatives. Most of the immigration fuss was about arrivals from Europe, where there was little scope for our government changing the rules. What was needed by an ambitious but outwardly loyal minister was the "low fruit." I can easily picture a Sir Humphrey Appleby type floating a policy like this. In the days when the word Brexit had not been coined, ruffling feathers in the Commonwealth, especially in places like the West Indies was not a big deal.

I briefly caught part of the Channel 4 News last night when some Tory MP (I think) seemed to be claiming that few if any people had actually been deported. I only saw a bit of it so I may have got it wrong but his nervous case seemed to be that it may have been a terrible policy but they'd been incapable of executing it. :roll:
==============================================================================
PS Predictions about black men holding the whip were fulfilled yesterday - if only in metaphor - when TM left a Parliamentary debate to go and grovel to some Commonwealth leaders only a matter of days after she had refused even to meet them on the issue.
Last edited by thirdcrank on 18 Apr 2018, 10:59am, edited 1 time in total.
reohn2
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Re: Should Enoch Powell get a blue plaque ( in Wolverhamton)?

Post by reohn2 »

bovlomov wrote:
reohn2 wrote:Yep a bunch of incompetents becoming more incompetent seemingly by the day.
You couldn't make it up as,they say....

Incompetent in one sense, but the policy was executed quite competently, exactly as it was intended.

But not competent enough for a former HS now PM and her symbolic minority government to get away with eh? :wink:
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bovlomov
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Re: Should Enoch Powell get a blue plaque ( in Wolverhamton)?

Post by bovlomov »

reohn2 wrote:
bovlomov wrote:
reohn2 wrote:Yep a bunch of incompetents becoming more incompetent seemingly by the day.
You couldn't make it up as,they say....

Incompetent in one sense, but the policy was executed quite competently, exactly as it was intended.

But not competent enough for a former HS now PM and her symbolic minority government to get away with eh? :wink:

Did you mean shambolic?

...or Diabolic?
reohn2
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Re: Should Enoch Powell get a blue plaque ( in Wolverhamton)?

Post by reohn2 »

bovlomov wrote:
reohn2 wrote:
bovlomov wrote:Incompetent in one sense, but the policy was executed quite competently, exactly as it was intended.

But not competent enough for a former HS now PM and her symbolic minority government to get away with eh? :wink:

Did you mean shambolic?

...or Diabolic?

Both! :wink:
PS,Damned predictive text,and it's less than observant user :oops:
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Should Enoch Powell get a blue plaque ( in Wolverhamton)?

Post by leftpoole »

pete75 wrote:
bikepacker wrote:Don’t remember much about the content but I do remember what an excellent and mesmerising orator he was. Many years later I did some PR for the Billy Graham event at Villa Park and heard him speak. They both had a spellbinding way with words that engaged their whole audience.


Very like Adolf Hitler then.



Nothing like Hitler. Hitler was a vile man with vile ideas and behaviour. I hope you’re going to apologise for writing such a disgusting thing?
Billy Graham was a Christian and worked tirelessly and open and honestly for a great cause. Enoch was a man who knew what would happen and tried to get somebody to sit up and do something about it. He was virtually correct in most things he said.
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thirdcrank
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Re: Should Enoch Powell get a blue plaque ( in Wolverhamton)?

Post by thirdcrank »

Good old Enoch and Adolph were certainly both good at oratory.

They both seemed to believe in the superiority of their own race.

A big difference is that Hitler managed to organize a considerably bigger gang to lead.
profpointy
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Re: Should Enoch Powell get a blue plaque ( in Wolverhamton)?

Post by profpointy »

leftpoole wrote:
pete75 wrote:
bikepacker wrote:Don’t remember much about the content but I do remember what an excellent and mesmerising orator he was. Many years later I did some PR for the Billy Graham event at Villa Park and heard him speak. They both had a spellbinding way with words that engaged their whole audience.


Very like Adolf Hitler then.



Nothing like Hitler. Hitler was a vile man with vile ideas and behaviour. I hope you’re going to apologise for writing such a disgusting thing?
Billy Graham was a Christian and worked tirelessly and open and honestly for a great cause. Enoch was a man who knew what would happen and tried to get somebody to sit up and do something about it. He was virtually correct in most things he said.
Regards,
John


I'm a trendy consumer. Just look at my stupid phone.



Hitler stirred up hatred of Jews
Enoch stirred up hatred of "coloured" people
.and both were superb orators and knew exaclty the nature of their words. Admittedly the latter didn't invade any countries nor take action to the extremes Hitler did - but to his credit Ted Heath sacked Enoch so he was never in a position of power

Anyone who gives Enoch the benefit of the doubt needs to read the speech. It was outragous even then and quite beyond the pale now. I bet people were beaten and likely killed because of it.
reohn2
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Re: Should Enoch Powell get a blue plaque ( in Wolverhamton)?

Post by reohn2 »

TC,Profpointy
Spot on!
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bovlomov
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Re: Should Enoch Powell get a blue plaque ( in Wolverhamton)?

Post by bovlomov »

leftpoole wrote:Enoch was a man who knew what would happen and tried to get somebody to sit up and do something about it. He was virtually correct in most things he said.

'Enoch was Right' was a common cry when I was growing up. It even found its way onto lapel badges.

But having only recently read the speech, I'm struggling to understand what people saw - and still see - in it.

I'll put forward an alternative view. In making such a mean-spirited, gossip-laden, melodramatic and racist speech, Powell sucked the oxygen from more reasonable discussions about immigration. If anti-immigration is often seen to equal racism, perhaps it's Powell's fault, to some degree.
Last edited by bovlomov on 18 Apr 2018, 10:16pm, edited 1 time in total.
pwa
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Re: Should Enoch Powell get a blue plaque ( in Wolverhamton)?

Post by pwa »

Generally I think Enoch was wrong in his prediction of "the black man having the whip hand" and rivers running with blood. There have been moments when predominantly black communities have seen clashes with authority, but his meltdown scenario has not happened and to me does not look like happening. There has been a black presence in Cardiff for a long time and if you go there today you will see people of black, white and mixed background interacting as if race is not an issue. I'm sure the same is true in many parts of the UK. There is a problem with Asian and white populations not mixing much in some towns and cities, but mostly that is not a violent situation and there are some signs of integration. And the "whip hand" is still mostly white. Enoch might have benefited from some nice chamomile tea. That would have settled his nerves.
profpointy
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Re: Should Enoch Powell get a blue plaque ( in Wolverhamton)?

Post by profpointy »

My issue with Enoch, is not, per se, that he was wrong, but that he used his cosiderable talents of oratory, and intellect, to promote a vile agenda of hatred, which caused real harm to people with the "wrong" skin colour, some of whose descentends are doubtless now neighbours, friends and colleagues. I cannot countenance a blue plaque for that any more than for Oswald Moseley or Dr Goebells (if the latter ever had digs in the Uk)
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bovlomov
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Re: Should Enoch Powell get a blue plaque ( in Wolverhamton)?

Post by bovlomov »

profpointy wrote:...a vile agenda of hatred...

Is 'hatred' the right word?

I'm thinking of all the times in a single day that this word is used to describe a certain kind of opinion. Discrimination on the grounds of race, colour, sexual preference, and so on, can be moralistic, bullying, snide, indignant or fearful. And it can be motivated by overt hatred, but most often it is not.

I suppose it depends on the definition of hate, and whether you think that all discrimination originates in hate. I'm not sure that it does, and I feel uncomfortable when I see the word 'hate' used to describe what I would ascribe to ignorance, inferiority complexes, selfishness and tribalism. Also, the word often elevates idiotic opinions above their proper station.

Perhaps someone will show me the error of my thinking.
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Re: Should Enoch Powell get a blue plaque ( in Wolverhamton)?

Post by Cyril Haearn »

bovlomov wrote:
profpointy wrote:...a vile agenda of hatred...

Is 'hatred' the right word?

I'm thinking of all the times in a single day that this word is used to describe a certain kind of opinion. Discrimination on the grounds of race, colour, sexual preference, and so on, can be moralistic, bullying, snide, indignant or fearful. And it can be motivated by overt hatred, but most often it is not.

I suppose it depends on the definition of hate, and whether you think that all discrimination originates in hate. I'm not sure that it does, and I feel uncomfortable when I see the word 'hate' used to describe what I would ascribe to ignorance, inferiority complexes, selfishness and tribalism. Also, the word often elevates idiotic opinions above their proper station.

Perhaps someone will show me the error of my thinking.

Hatred? Conflict partner? Opionin forming?

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Re: Should Enoch Powell get a blue plaque ( in Wolverhamton)?

Post by thirdcrank »

bovlomov wrote: ... Is 'hatred' the right word? ... .


One of my pet theories is that this type of feeling defines the relationship between drivers and cyclists. A feeling on the part of many drivers that they are superior to cyclists, reinforced by being stronger in terms of speed and invulnerability. Other things like taxation reinforce it further. Put simply, cyclists are a minority. Membership of that minority is largely voluntary, which IMO is one of the big barriers to cycling. The equivalent to integration is not bothering cycling. If membership of a minority is defined by skin colour, there's nothing voluntary about it.

I don't think it matters what you call it if it exists.
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