Free tram + bus travel to cut emissions?

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PH
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Re: Free tram + bus travel to cut emissions?

Post by PH »

Cunobelin wrote:There is an interesting history with London.

Leaving aside the political party aspect and looking at the actual events

It's a shame the GLCs Fares Fair policy became so political, on both sides, it was clearly in the manifesto and wasn't considered that controversial until the personalities became involved. There was a compromise a couple of years later, smaller reductions and smaller results, 11% increase in public transport use and 9% decrease in car use.
All the evidence is there that pricing has an effect, and how big the differential needs to be. Public transport doesn't need to be free, nor will price ever be the sole consideration, but the situation where using a car is often the most economical option (For the user) has to be addressed.
Cyril Haearn
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Re: Free tram + bus travel to cut emissions?

Post by Cyril Haearn »

I have seen the future and it works!

Fairs fair by Ken Livingstone, I do remember it now though I did not have much to do with London
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Vorpal
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Re: Free tram + bus travel to cut emissions?

Post by Vorpal »

Providing free, efficient, good quality public transport eliminates transport poverty, which is a big determinant in the ability of poor people to find and retain jobs.
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mercalia
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Re: Free tram + bus travel to cut emissions?

Post by mercalia »

Vorpal wrote:Providing free, efficient, good quality public transport eliminates transport poverty, which is a big determinant in the ability of poor people to find and retain jobs.


yes - what is so strange is that the torys want to get rid of the lower orders from cities but make it cost too much to commute to the essential jobs in the cities. Can you figure that? just short termism?
reohn2
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Re: Free tram + bus travel to cut emissions?

Post by reohn2 »

NUKe wrote:
reohn2 wrote:The words,joined up,affordable,reliable and clean,public bus and rail transport,would go a long way toward clean air and noise pollution and clear the streets of under used cars as a result.
Add to that a ban on cars in towns and cities and life would be a lot more pleasant for people who work and live there,cycling would also be encouraged by such "radical" measures.

Whilst I agree with you 100%, the problem is people will always claim they need their car. And unless we have a dictatorship politicians are too frightened of being voted out.

It needs cross party agreement(not only on transport) and some home truths spelled out to the nation about where the country is heading on the present course of transport disaster.

EDIT:- I heard on local news the government has reduced subsidises on local bus services in Liverpool area which will mean a reduction jn services.
They've also closed down a few more job centres,which means job seekers will have travel further to sign on and be interviewed for work
You couldn't make it up :?
Last edited by reohn2 on 16 Feb 2018, 11:31pm, edited 3 times in total.
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pete75
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Re: Free bus + tram travel to cut emissions?

Post by pete75 »

thirdcrank wrote:, in the early days of Red Ken's congestion charge an LWB Land Rover - eight seats - was exempt.


Actually the 110 Defender estate - theoretically a 12 seater so classed as a mini bus and thus charge free. If mini buses are still exempt then a 12 seater Defender will be. Only the versions sold in the UK had 12 theoretical seats - apparently so VAT could be reclaimed as they were then classed as a commercial vehicle. I know a couple of people who bought 12 seaters and reclaimed the VAT.
Not a comfortable 12 seater - 3 seats in the front , 3 in the middle and 3 down each side in the back
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Cyril Haearn
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Re: Free tram + bus travel to cut emissions?

Post by Cyril Haearn »

I have been walking into town a lot recently, only 4 km, I need exercise, cycling 4 km is not enough
Would not take the bus even if it was free, Sundays it runs once an hour, walking is usually quicker
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jgurney
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Re: Free tram + bus travel to cut emissions?

Post by jgurney »

PH wrote: It's a shame the GLCs Fares Fair policy became so political,


It's key problem was that the government blocked it's being extended to BR trains, so it only applied to the buses and the Underground, which were under direct GLC control. In those days the Travelcard ticket system similarly applied to buses and Underground only.

This left residents of the outer southern boroughs with little or no Underground service but extensively served by BR (Bromley being the one which brought the court case) getting relatively less benefit from the policy but paying just the same higher rates for it. The policy might well have survived and succeeded if it had reduced train fares from Bromley and Croydon into London to the same extent that it reduced Underground fares from Uxbridge and Barnet.

Today practically all rail services within London (the exceptions being those serving Heathrow apart from the Piccadilly Line) are integrated into the TFL fares system, so it probably could be done now.
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Re: Free tram + bus travel to cut emissions?

Post by jgurney »

PDQ Mobile wrote:It seems like one extreme to another to make it free. For it must cost some substantial amount to run?
Surely a better way would be a quick, clean, joined up, green, public transport system that charges easily affordable fares?


There is the issue that if the fares really are easily affordable then the costs of collecting the money, checking tickets, etc, can get close to the revenue collected. If that happens then the system might as well be free to use.

E.g. on a bus route where most users have pensioners passes or school bus passes*, the cash collected from those who do pay may not cover the extra costs created by collecting it. Collecting cash fares means fitting somewhere secure to keep it, robbers occasionally bashing up drivers to steal it, drivers occasionally stealing it, passengers occasionally dodging paying it, precautions against the last three, having someone at the depot collecting it up from the buses and counting it all, transporting it to the bank, anti-robbery precautions for those stages, and paying the bank's charges for accepting large volumes of small coinage.

A card-only system (as on London buses) can reduce costs but still needs a very reliable computer system, precautions against electronic theft, and a number of skilled staff to deal with the inevitable problems which crop up (e.g. TfL's Oyster system cannot cope with people swiping in at railway stations then, on finding the train is cancelled, leaving again and getting on a bus instead, or with them being stuck on a delayed train for so long that the system assumes they left without swiping out: both have led to me needing manual refunds).

* on two bus routes in Somerset and one in Surrey, I have found drivers taken aback at my trying to pay fares. In each case, it was so long since anyone of working age had travelled on the route that the drivers had got into the (technically illegal) habit of not bothering to take along a fare chart, ticket machine or cash box. On one route in Surrey the driver did not even realise he was driving a public bus. The depot manager when putting him on the turn had referred to 'taking the old ladies shopping' and he was under the impression he was on a private hire job for Social Services to take pensioners on an outing to the shops. It was only when I argued and produced a copy of the timetable that he realised it was actually a bus route, although all the other passengers were indeed old ladies.
PH
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Re: Free tram + bus travel to cut emissions?

Post by PH »

jgurney wrote:
PH wrote: It's a shame the GLCs Fares Fair policy became so political,


It's key problem was that the government blocked it's being extended to BR trains, so it only applied to the buses and the Underground, which were under direct GLC control. In those days the Travelcard ticket system similarly applied to buses and Underground only.

This left residents of the outer southern boroughs with little or no Underground service but extensively served by BR (Bromley being the one which brought the court case) getting relatively less benefit from the policy but paying just the same higher rates for it. The policy might well have survived and succeeded if it had reduced train fares from Bromley and Croydon into London to the same extent that it reduced Underground fares from Uxbridge and Barnet.

Today practically all rail services within London (the exceptions being those serving Heathrow apart from the Piccadilly Line) are integrated into the TFL fares system, so it probably could be done now.

I think the key problem was Livingstone taking over the GLC from McIntosh, as I said the Fares Fair policy was clearly in the manifesto and although it didn't have Tory support it wasn't seen as controversial until it was Red Ken implementing it.
And although it was Bromley that brought the case to court they lost on the grounds you outline, the appeal court (latter upheld by the Lords) ruled that the GLC were constitutionally not permitted to deliberately run transport at deficit, so no borough (benefiting or not) could be required to increase the rates to pay for it.
Ah, different times, the idea that a transport policy would convert us all into flag waving communists...
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Re: Free tram + bus travel to cut emissions?

Post by thirdcrank »

Whatever the constitutional and legal niceties, the thread is about the possibility of cutting emissions by free public transport. IMO, it could only work if strong measures were taken to avoid more, currently unused private vehicles taking advantage of the road space created by putting the hordes on buses etc. There are some people in our society whose wealth is such that they are not likely to be influenced by being able to hop on a bus for nothing. The parallel is speeders who can pay all the fines you like with impunity, but face "exceptional hardship" if banned from driving.

I gave being able to splash out on an LWB Landrover as an example: let's remember that the Land Rover Defender ie the real Land Rover, finally went out of production because it could not be modernised to meet increasingly strict emissions standards. (Not sufficiently inventive with the cheating technology?) Public transport needs to be tightly defined or else you just end up with some zillionaire buying a Routemaster for private commuting.

It does seem strange that those who object to public transport being run by local authorities, have no problem if the public money is paying for a lot of the cost in the form of subsidies.
PH
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Re: Free tram + bus travel to cut emissions?

Post by PH »

thirdcrank wrote:Public transport needs to be tightly defined or else you just end up with some zillionaire buying a Routemaster for private commuting.

Ryanair boss Michael O'Leary set up a taxi company so he could use the Dublin bus lanes to get to work. There will always be those rich enough to find a way around the regulations. It's something you can get indignant about, but it shouldn't be too hard to make it too small a percentage of those travelling to have much effect on the outcome. I don't mind the super rich paying for privilege, as long as those monies get used for the benefit of all.
Cyril Haearn
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Re: Free tram + bus travel to cut emissions?

Post by Cyril Haearn »

In Tallinn local travel is free for residents, fares for visitors were increased

The trouble is, making public transport more attractive -> people might walk less
Maybe half the stops could be closed to make short trips less attractive but that would be bad for disabled and old people
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Cyril Haearn
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Re: Free tram + bus travel to cut emissions?

Post by Cyril Haearn »

What a surprise, there are now after all no plans to test free urban transit :?
But maybe something will be done to try to tempt diesel drivers to upgrade to public transport
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Re: Free tram + bus travel to cut emissions?

Post by bigjim »

There is the issue that if the fares really are easily affordable then the costs of collecting the money, checking tickets, etc, can get close to the revenue collected. If that happens then the system might as well be free to use.

E.g. on a bus route where most users have pensioners passes or school bus passes*, the cash collected from those who do pay may not cover the extra costs created by collecting it.

The bus companies are paid for those using a free pass. I think it is about 80p a swipe. They are quite happy with the pass system as otherwise certain routes would not be worth running. There are a few bus drivers ride with our local CTC club.
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