Free tram + bus travel to cut emissions?

[Vorpal]

You can't re-allocate something that nobody is paying. Nobody is handing £600 per person over to drivers. From memory that report allocated costs to things like noise and lack of exercise which while they may effect quality of life would not result in any cash to allocate if cars vanished tomorrow.

In fact to some extent noise is a price paid voluntarily for convenience. I once lived in a flat 50m from a major road. There was some traffic noise. That minor inconvenience was outweighed by the fact I was within 5 minutes walk of local shops, pubs, and bus routes and underground stations.

Actually, if you follow the links through, you'll see that it was mostly accidents and pollution, but it did not include things like ill health due to lack of exercise.

The other report I linked did include them.

So, it is money that is being paid out. Today. Whilst I sit here typing this, local authorities and central government are directly paying millions for our addiction to the motor car.

Just think if you could have lived in that flat and *not* had the inconvenience of traffic noise. Or not had to breathe noxious fumes when walking to the shops.

[PDQ Mobile]

It seems like one extreme to another to make it free. For it must cost some substantial amount to run?
Surely a better way would be a quick, clean, joined up, green, public transport system that charges easily affordable fares?

Pie in the sky?

[Cunobelin]

I catch a bus on occasion from work

Wednesday was typical - the service runs every ten minutes


According to the "Live" phone app - it is due in 2 minutes, and next service is at 4 minutes, 8 minute and 21 minutes
According to the "Live" bus stop display, it is due , and in 10 minutes and 12 minutes

We then stood there and waited as the busses scrolled off the "Live" platforms, into whatever ether these buses go into

Then at 18 minutes with 3 busses missing according to one timetable, and 2 missing on teh other 4 busses arrive in convoy, and proceed to run teh rest of the route in convoy, leapfrogging each other as bus stops to embark or disembark

Totally unreliable, totally misinformed and a shambles

All this would need to be improved dramatically if I was to even consider commuting by bus

[Cunobelin]

There is an interesting history with London.

Leaving aside the political party aspect and looking at the actual events

The Council decided that we were subsidising vehicles, then a small increase in the rates would finance a subsidy for public transport

The Council decided on a low fares system and cut fares across London by 30 %

It was a success and saw an increase in use and a decrease in motor vehicle use was reduced and accident rates also fell

Car use in London dropped by 10%. An extra £48m fare revenue came in and tube usage went up 44%, bus usage rose by 14%. These were the greatest increases in the 52 year history of London Transport. A survey done by Fieldwork International revealed that 71% of Londoners strongly felt that subsidised public transport benefited London. Even the governments own cost-benefit analysis showed the importance of investing in Public Transport when the full cost to the community was considered.

However one group decided that the subsidy was not good financial practice and took the case to the court

In a court hearing the decision was made that :

"A local authority owes a fiduciary duty to the ratepayers from whom it obtains moneys needed to carry out its statutory functions, and this includes a duty not to expend those moneys thriftlessly but to deploy the full financial resources available to it to the best advantage".

Hence the Council use of tax payers money to subsidise public transport was illegal

The Scheme was withdrawn, fares doubled, car use rocketed , accidents again increased and 1200 jobs were lost

I wonder what would happen today?

[reohn2]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-42749973

[reohn2]

It seems like one extreme to another to make it free. For it must cost some substantial amount to run?
Surely a better way would be a quick, clean, joined up, green, public transport system that charges easily affordable fares?

Pie in the sky?

It doesn't have to be pie in the sky if you want to cut pollution in cities and towns and stop the roads being clogged up with unnecessary traffic and parked cars everywhere.

[Vorpal]

Hence the Council use of tax payers money to subsidise public transport was illegal

The Scheme was withdrawn, fares doubled, car use rocketed , accidents again increased and 1200 jobs were lost

I wonder what would happen today?

Someone should sue central government and their local council over their use of taxpayer money to subsidise private motor vehicle use.

[reohn2]

I catch a bus on occasion from work

Wednesday was typical - the service runs every ten minutes


According to the "Live" phone app - it is due in 2 minutes, and next service is at 4 minutes, 8 minute and 21 minutes
According to the "Live" bus stop display, it is due , and in 10 minutes and 12 minutes

We then stood there and waited as the busses scrolled off the "Live" platforms, into whatever ether these buses go into

Then at 18 minutes with 3 busses missing according to one timetable, and 2 missing on teh other 4 busses arrive in convoy, and proceed to run teh rest of the route in convoy, leapfrogging each other as bus stops to embark or disembark

Totally unreliable, totally misinformed and a shambles

All this would need to be improved dramatically if I was to even consider commuting by bus

That kind of service helps no one,bus company and traveller alike

[Vorpal]

Then at 18 minutes with 3 busses missing according to one timetable, and 2 missing on teh other 4 busses arrive in convoy, and proceed to run teh rest of the route in convoy, leapfrogging each other as bus stops to embark or disembark

Totally unreliable, totally misinformed and a shambles

All this would need to be improved dramatically if I was to even consider commuting by bus

The misinformed can be fixed with a better traffic model. The reliability would go up dramatically with less motor vehicle traffic on the roads.

[NUKe]

Does anyone remember Sheffield in the 70s and 80s buses 5p to anywhere, one every few minutes always full. Then Maggie and her cronies insisted it had to be privatised. Many outlying villages now don't have a service, they built the trams too late, the council fought hard rta keep the buses. A friend of mine helped draft the paper. One of the main arguments was that an rta costs around 50 k and the bus subsidy was 500k they also looked into the cost road building but it was the rta cost i remember. These were dismissed by the Governmentas cross subsidies, and the council was forced to privatise the buses.

Shame pollution and global warming wasn't on the agenda then.

[thirdcrank]

Air pollution isn't very much different from refuse disposal, except that it's not an eyesore.

(I certainly remember Doncaster public transport pre-Thatcher and it was cheap at point of use and plentiful.)

[reohn2]

The words,joined up,affordable,reliable and clean,public bus and rail transport,would go a long way toward clean air and noise pollution and clear the streets of under used cars as a result.
Add to that a ban on cars in towns and cities and life would be a lot more pleasant for people who work and live there,cycling would also be encouraged by such "radical" measures.

[RickH]

I catch a bus on occasion from work

Wednesday was typical - the service runs every ten minutes


According to the "Live" phone app - it is due in 2 minutes, and next service is at 4 minutes, 8 minute and 21 minutes
According to the "Live" bus stop display, it is due , and in 10 minutes and 12 minutes

We then stood there and waited as the busses scrolled off the "Live" platforms, into whatever ether these buses go into

Then at 18 minutes with 3 busses missing according to one timetable, and 2 missing on teh other 4 busses arrive in convoy, and proceed to run teh rest of the route in convoy, leapfrogging each other as bus stops to embark or disembark

Totally unreliable, totally misinformed and a shambles

All this would need to be improved dramatically if I was to even consider commuting by bus

The main problem I see it is allowing cars to share the roads with the buses!

In heavy traffic, bunching of buses on a frequent timetable is almost inevitable unless you start stopping the ones behind from catching up if one starts getting delayed. Where buses have their own dedicated space - guided busway, bus lane, etc. (or just close the roads to cars!) - they can keep to timetable much better.

[NUKe]

The words,joined up,affordable,reliable and clean,public bus and rail transport,would go a long way toward clean air and noise pollution and clear the streets of under used cars as a result.
Add to that a ban on cars in towns and cities and life would be a lot more pleasant for people who work and live there,cycling would also be encouraged by such "radical" measures.

Whilst I agree with you 100%, the problem is people will always claim they need their car. And unless we have a dictatorship politicians are too frightened of being voted out.

[PH]

According to the "Live" phone app - it is due in 2 minutes, and next service is at 4 minutes, 8 minute and 21 minutes
According to the "Live" bus stop display, it is due , and in 10 minutes and 12 minutes

There seems to be two types of "Live" information, one where the busses are being tracked and the other where it's just using data from a timetable. I've been caught out by this a couple of times.