Homelesness - How much worse does it have to get?

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PH
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Re: Homelesness - How much worse does it have to get?

Post by PH »

Freddie wrote:
PH wrote:For a start, someone deciding they'd rather sleep in a shop doorway than in the shelter that may be offered, may say more about what's being offered than the individual. Try spending a few nights in some of them before you make judgements, it's a perfectly rational and sane choice to shun some of them.
I find it difficult to believe that anyone with their full faculties would prefer sleeping rough, especially over winter, to having a roof over their head. Maybe you can argue why it might be rational, as you put it, to be out in freezing temperatures when you could be sleeping under a roof. I doubt that shelters are by any means ideal accommodation, but I struggle to see how they could be worse than a shop doorway in sub zero temperatures.

Violence, bullying, sexual abuse, theft, none of these are unknown in hostels, you don't have to do much research to know this to be true.
Ben@Forest
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Re: Homelesness - How much worse does it have to get?

Post by Ben@Forest »

thirdcrank wrote:I think my main point is that it's unhelpful to see rough sleeping as a tip of the housing iceberg. Obviously, people sleeping rough rarely, if ever, have a house, but it seems they either shun the available emergency accommodation or are deemed to be so anti-social that they are excluded from it. Immigration policy has been mentioned and, whatever effect that has on housing, it's not easy to see that legally permitted immigration contributes to the numbers of rough sleepers. That leaves so-called "illegals" who seem unlikely to be attracted to the UK by the opportunity to sleep rough.


This came up only a couple of months ago when the topic of pet animals in rented accommodation (whether private or council) was being discussed. My wife has had a few cases over the years where homeless and/or rough sleepers have refused accommodation because they could not take their dogs.
PH
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Re: Homelesness - How much worse does it have to get?

Post by PH »

Freddie wrote:Well, my lazy criticism of the Labour government, as you put it, is but a counterpoint to lazy criticism of the Conservative government.

I didn't say otherwise and I thought calling it an example was enough of an indication that others would have been available. Even so, whatever it was in a response to, I believe it accurately demonstrates the point I was making.
If the issue of homelessness, in particular rough sleeping, is to be properly addressed, then political affiliation will have to be put to one side, as it is a long term problem which needs a solution that requires transcending petty political squabbles.

I would very much like to agree with that, but I don't see it as petty squabbles. It isn't political affiliation but some core beliefs that would need to be put aside, there is a difference in attitude about the level of support individuals should receive and who should pay for it. Austerity has put huge holes in the safety net, at the same time as policies like the change from Housing Benefit covering peoples rent costs to Local Housing Allowance only covering part of it are putting more people in need of it.
Freddie
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Re: Homelesness - How much worse does it have to get?

Post by Freddie »

PH wrote:Violence, bullying, sexual abuse, theft, none of these are unknown in hostels, you don't have to do much research to know this to be true.
Right, which ties into my earlier point that homelessness (the plain and simple lack of a home) is rarely the only problem of people who are sleeping rough or have to resort to shelters. Many of these people have other issues that precede and often result in their rough sleeping (behavioural, mental health problems and so on) and the odd person who ends up in a shelter who doesn't have these problems, then has to deal with these problems in others.

If this kind of thing is going on in any large way at shelters, then they need to employ staff (security?) to make sure that those causing issues are dealt with. This doesn't help those with long term behavioural and/or psychological problems, but then I don't see much hope for these people whose problems have often been apparent since childhood and ingrained for decades, beyond long term sheltered housing with structured and perhaps rigid rehabilitation.

Of course, the same objections to long term in-patient care for all but the most extreme cases prevents progress being made in this direction.

This is my objection to the idea that the problem just needs more money. What it needs is, to my mind, a completely different approach.
PH
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Re: Homelesness - How much worse does it have to get?

Post by PH »

Freddie wrote:
PH wrote:Violence, bullying, sexual abuse, theft, none of these are unknown in hostels, you don't have to do much research to know this to be true.
Right, which ties into my earlier point that homelessness (the plain and simple lack of a home) is rarely the only problem of people who are sleeping rough or have to resort to shelters. Many of these people have other issues that precede and often result in their rough sleeping (behavioural, mental health problems and so on) and the odd person who ends up in a shelter who doesn't have these problems, then has to deal with these problems in others.

I don't disagree with much of that, but I think the rarely isn't as rare as you might think and the odd persons are larger in number.
If this kind of thing is going on in any large way at shelters, then they need to employ staff (security?) to make sure that those causing issues are dealt with.

The only hostel I have an current knowledge of is I believe run to the best ability of the staff on the budget they have. Full time staff have been reduced to 9 from 12 in the last few years and they're trying to fill some of the gaps with volunteers.
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Re: Homelesness - How much worse does it have to get?

Post by Freddie »

PH wrote:I don't disagree with much of that, but I think the rarely isn't as rare as you might think and the odd persons are larger in number.
Well, then it is sad for them that they don't have family or friends that can support them, so that they need not be put in that situation. That is a problem in itself, poor relations (for whatever reason) with one's family.
PH wrote:The only hostel I have an current knowledge of is I believe run to the best ability of the staff on the budget they have. Full time staff have been reduced to 9 from 12 in the last few years and they're trying to fill some of the gaps with volunteers.
Well, I tend to think that with the best of intentions, the kind of people who often work in hostels are those with endless patience and a disposition to forgive or let bad behaviour slide. I am not saying people should be ruled with an iron rod, but there should be a balance of carrot and stick. People who are just homeless and able to behave themselves should be housed away from those with other, more extensive problems. At the very least rules should be enforced.

I know of someone who stayed in a womens shelter for a time. There was a perpetual fug of cannabis, much of this smoked by mothers with young children. The people running the place knew about it and made little attempt to do anything about it. Whatever your view on the drug, it is an illegal substance, more likely than not is bad for the health of young children and if these smaller things were enforced in the first instance (3 strikes and you are out?), then the entire system would better for those who did abide by the rules and would show those who may flaunt them that it wouldn't be tolerated.

Those with serious problems obviously need far more than a roof over their heads. They need a roof plus rehabiliation, army like structure (get up at this time, go to bed at this time) to reestablish routine and make them employable, and they need doctors and counsellors to tend to their mental health, behavioural and addiction problems.

This would be a gargantuan task which might occupy the better part of a decade to substantially rehabilitate some people.
mercalia
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Re: Homelesness - How much worse does it have to get?

Post by mercalia »

I have just been listening to a radio prgramme I recorded some time ago on the council house sell off started by M. So a concils sells off a property they keep just 1/3 of the sale the rest goes to the govt and to rub salt into the wound if the council dont built a replacement in I think it was 5 years the govt also gets the 1/3 also. :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: what an evil policy I am incredulous that it is legal certainly immoral. And now the latest rub is the right to buy housing association property. It seems they can keep the full sum paid BUT the subsidy has to be PAID FROM COUNCILS SELLING OFF THEIR SOCIAL HOUSING AT AN ACCELERATED RATE. Well I cant wait for Corbyn to come into power. What sort of country is the UK certainly not a UNITED kingdom? Any thing but.
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Pastychomper
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Re: Homelesness - How much worse does it have to get?

Post by Pastychomper »

A couple of thoughts on this, I guess that makes them a penny each...

One, I know of a case in 2009 when a suddenly homeless man was refused any form of accommodation because, being male and youngish, he wasn't at enough risk if he slept rough. He did get beds with friends and family though, after travelling the length of the country.

Two, when planning a recent trip I considered staying at a (commercial) hostel. Most of the hostels in the city I looked at had multiple reviews telling of paying guests being woken in the night by strangers who claimed to be employees of the hostels, and wanted to see proof they'd paid. Now I know internet reviews are skewed towards bad experiences, but the apparent lack of security was enough to put me off. If that's the case with even a minority of commercial hostels, I dread to think what security would be like at a less well funded establishment. I can well imagine choosing to sleep rough instead.
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Re: Homelesness - How much worse does it have to get?

Post by Vorpal »

There is so little budget for mental health care that basically only people who are *actively* suicidal can get care other than a prescription for anti-depressants (even that might not be so easy to get). And as soon as they are no longer actively suicidal, they are relased from care. This applies to both out-patient and residential care.

People who want ongoing care and are not actively suicidal generally need to rely on private care, which of course costs money, or charities which are over capacity, as well.

This is a problem that will only get worse unless it is addressed directly across menatl health, training in self care and life skills, jobs training and/or social benefits, etc.

Far too many people who may have been marginally able to contribute to society have not been given the support they need to be fully able to contribuite to society. Yes, they need to help themselves, too, but they can't pull themselves up by the bootstraps if they ain't got boots in the first place.

p.s. many people who are homeless become homeless because they have left an abusive situation. This is especially common among homeless teens and women. They are also especially likely to fear further abuse in hostels.
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thirdcrank
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Re: Homelesness - How much worse does it have to get?

Post by thirdcrank »

The media tend to latch onto a topic and then run with it for a while. The forecast of Siberian weather may keep this in the public eye for a little longer.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-essex-43181603
Abradable Chin
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Re: How much worse does it have to get?

Post by Abradable Chin »

reohn2 wrote:The country isn't a business

You've grasped it, but many people haven't, especially politicians (or else they are playing thick): there absolutely is a magic money tree for sovereign governments that issue their own fiat currency. These sorts of governments can accomplish what they like so long as they don't but up against a natural resource limitation. Money is not a natural resource.

On the topic of the thread, it's been asked "who wouldn't want a roof over his head?". Well, no-one. But some people are self-destructive and even if given a free home will sabotage their opportunity, even if it is a passive way, like by ignoring a leak or blocked drain, leaving clothes drying over an electric fire, or having a friend round who trashes the place. Other people hate feeling in bondage, or hate the state intruding in their lives, so, even though a home is made available, all the forms and check-ups, and official bits of paper, interviews, and bills are terrifying. Unfortunately, governments seem to love inventories, and tracking and counting its citizens ( I suppose this was happening under William the Conqueror, and back in Roman times) so I can't see people ever being left alone, free of accountability. A citizen's income might be the closest we'll get to enabling everyone to have some level of independence and freedom, but even that would need some ID and registration and tracking.
mercalia
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Re: Homelesness - How much worse does it have to get?

Post by mercalia »

reohn2
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Re: Homelesness - How much worse does it have to get?

Post by reohn2 »


The land of the free :?
Oh! and the light art display mus be so good to see........
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reohn2
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Re: Homelesness - How much worse does it have to get?

Post by reohn2 »

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"All we are not stares back at what we are"
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