May's ultimatum to Russia

Use this board for general non-cycling-related chat, or to introduce yourself to the forum.
Ben@Forest
Posts: 1995
Joined: 28 Jan 2013, 5:58pm

Re: May's ultimatum to Russia

Postby Ben@Forest » 15 Mar 2018, 3:00pm

Mike Sales wrote:
reohn2 wrote:
I have certain personal experiences and reasons for referring to the Tory party as evil and scum,which won't change.


Nye Bevan called them "lower than vermin". I believe he had his reasons.


Bevan also believed that with the creation of the NHS and programmes such as free orange juice and free milk for school children (so better treatment and better preventative healthcare) the budget for the NHS would go down not up. So he was not quite infallible.

Though I would love to see him brought back from the grave and see if his position on fixing privately done breast enlargements, gender reassignment surgery and IVF was in accord with current thinking. If he gave his opinions today I don't think a Labour audience would give him a lot of time.

pwa
Posts: 10632
Joined: 2 Oct 2011, 8:55pm

Re: May's ultimatum to Russia

Postby pwa » 15 Mar 2018, 3:16pm

reohn2 wrote:
pwa wrote:
Mike Sales wrote:
Nye Bevan called them "lower than vermin". I believe he had his reasons.


If a Tory called another group "vermin" we would be comparing the comment to the Nazis using footage of rats as a metaphor for Jews. Decent people don't call others from a different strand of opinion "vermin" or "lower than vermin". We leave that sort of thing to the far right bigots. So Bevan, for all his considerable achievements, got it wrong there.

I have known good people who are Tories and I have known good people who are Labour. Both exist.

It's the party in total I hold such views on not all members therein,as in the Labour party some are deluded and for various reasons.
But the party was founded by and for the landed gentry and is still the same today as it ever was,in the past its been of a more human form but always reverts to its roots,run for the rich for the rich.
If a Tory ever puts his or her arm around you be aware s/he's feeling for a chink in your armour where they can stick the knife.
I'm resolute of that conviction and have good reason to be.


I'm sure your experiences are valid, but I'd say they relate to individuals and you should always leave the door slightly ajar for potential friends who come from strange places, even the Tory Party. I've known Tories who want good things for everyone but believe (in a way that I don't) that governments and councils are rubbish at providing those good things. It is that belief that makes them Tory.

reohn2
Posts: 36774
Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: May's ultimatum to Russia

Postby reohn2 » 15 Mar 2018, 3:39pm

pwa wrote:I'm sure your experiences are valid, but I'd say they relate to individuals and you should always leave the door slightly ajar for potential friends who come from strange places, even the Tory Party. I've known Tories who want good things for everyone but believe (in a way that I don't) that governments and councils are rubbish at providing those good things. It is that belief that makes them Tory.

My experiences don't just relate to individuals,but to the machine that is the Tory party,that individuals are fooled into thinking the party is anything other than primarily for the rich and funded by the rich is their delusion not mine.
I've spent almost all my adult life with the Tories in power,either as the Tories or the Labour party trying to be Tories,the result being we are where we are as a nation,which isn't a satisfactory outcome IMO.
-----------------------------------------------------------
I cycle therefore I am.

thirdcrank
Posts: 28684
Joined: 9 Jan 2007, 2:44pm

Re: May's ultimatum to Russia

Postby thirdcrank » 15 Mar 2018, 3:47pm

Overall, I think that health care has improved life expectancy, especially of the poor. There are certain things that nobody could have predicted seventy years ago, such as the considerable advances in medicine, with the massive increases in life expectancy and the commercial pressures from companies involved with some of those advances. (Once the commercial interests of tobacco barons had been tackled.)

It's arguable that Bevan's big mistake was to put the £££ in the hands of the medics, rather than their patients. The deference might then have been a tad more in the other direction. Less "The doctor will see you now" and a bit more "Would you like to come this way..." To be fair, at the medical centre where I tool my late mother for the last couple of years of her life, all the doctors left their consulting rooms to welcome their patients from the waiting room. Excellent.

On the Russia theme, I was surprised to see it suggested (World at War series?) that one of the reasons for the resilience of the Red Army in WWII was the high level of medical care given to ordinary soldiers.

Ben@Forest
Posts: 1995
Joined: 28 Jan 2013, 5:58pm

Re: May's ultimatum to Russia

Postby Ben@Forest » 15 Mar 2018, 4:03pm

thirdcrank wrote:On the Russia theme, I was surprised to see it suggested (World at War series?) that one of the reasons for the resilience of the Red Army in WWII was the high level of medical care given to ordinary soldiers.


Serious thread drift this but at the end of WW2 as the western allies advanced and our military doctors and medics started to encounter and even work with German doctors they were astonished at just how little the Germans thought about post-operation 'quality of life'. So German surgeons would immediately amputate a hand or an arm or a leg because it was easier, when Allied medics would try to save it - even if the soldier would never fight again.

This supported a view I had heard from someone who had been a boy living in 1950s Germany - he was the son of an army chaplain. He said that the streets were full of men with limbs, arms, feet, missing - it was one of the most notable things when he compared Germany and Britain at the time.

PH
Posts: 7684
Joined: 21 Jan 2007, 12:31am
Location: Derby
Contact:

Re: May's ultimatum to Russia

Postby PH » 15 Mar 2018, 4:09pm

Ben@Forest wrote:
PH wrote:The relationship between the unions and the Labour Party is clear and open, it is their party, they created it, it is the party of labour, there's a clue in the name.


Though not everyone associated with Labour wants that, Momentum want to tap into a different sort of member:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/mar/07/momentum-backed-nec-member-christine-shawcroft-labour-should-cut-union-links

Pretty much all the press and political websites are describing what's happening as a (metaphorical) punch-up.

Dissenting voices confirm rather than disprove the comment that I made about the relationship being clear and open, I'd be worried if there were none. According to this report that was a heat of the moment comment, I understand her frustrations, but I doubt anyone is seriously considering a divorce.

thirdcrank
Posts: 28684
Joined: 9 Jan 2007, 2:44pm

Re: May's ultimatum to Russia

Postby thirdcrank » 15 Mar 2018, 4:41pm

KTHSullivan wrote:We could of course say nothing and glibly accept that a foreign power can run amuck at will in the UK. Or we could complain. Do we now consider that the murder of whistle blowers and or dissidents to be de rigour? The UK is a democracy, its not perfect by any means but we do have certain rights set in law. Whereas Russia unfortunately is run by an "elected government" that has effectively no opposition, where the opinion of the state is reinforced by thugs and now apparently murderers. We may well be "clucking" when compared to the might of the Russian state, but to do or say nothing would however be somewhat abhorrent.


I don't condone what's happened in any shape or form. I'm acutely aware that in the mid 1970's, the widely-published pic of Sergeant Bailey might just as easily been one of me when I had no grey hair (although when they were dishing out Silver Jubilee medals in 1977, my name was inexplicably missed off the list :wink: ) That's not to claim I have ever done anything special; just to note that he was doing a normal job in a normal way when he became a presumably unintended target.

However, do we believe that the Foreign Secretary has any credibility beyond Conservative Associations, especially in the Home Counties? International diplomacy isn't clean cut. Like so many other sorts of negotiations, it's not advanced by triumphalism and the rest of it. It's hard to deal successfully with a foreign power and playing to the home audience at the same time makes it harder still.

PS: Sergei Skripal is neither a whistle blower nor a dissident. He was apparently a colonel in some part of the Russian military and a spy. That's not to say I think he's fair game for this sort of thing. If there's any long-term damage, it could be to reduce the willingness of others to do the same.

Mike Sales
Posts: 3545
Joined: 7 Mar 2009, 3:31pm

Re: May's ultimatum to Russia

Postby Mike Sales » 15 Mar 2018, 5:05pm

Ben@Forest wrote:Serious thread drift this but at the end of WW2 as the western allies advanced and our military doctors and medics started to encounter and even work with German doctors they were astonished at just how little the Germans thought about post-operation 'quality of life'. So German surgeons would immediately amputate a hand or an arm or a leg because it was easier, when Allied medics would try to save it - even if the soldier would never fight again.



To continue the drift:-
My grandfather was in the trenches in WWI. This is the story which has come down to me. He was wounded in the leg and captured by the Germans. He was cared for and taken to hospital. He was terrified that the doctors would amputate, and yelled "Nein, nein" whenever they came near. He kept his leg and was generally well cared for. Consequently, in the Thirties and during WW2 he was pro german.

Mike Sales
Posts: 3545
Joined: 7 Mar 2009, 3:31pm

Re: May's ultimatum to Russia

Postby Mike Sales » 15 Mar 2018, 5:07pm

thirdcrank wrote:It's arguable that Bevan's big mistake was to put the £££ in the hands of the medics, .


Didn't he say something about "stopping their mouths with silver"?

thirdcrank
Posts: 28684
Joined: 9 Jan 2007, 2:44pm

Re: May's ultimatum to Russia

Postby thirdcrank » 15 Mar 2018, 5:13pm

Mike Sales wrote:
thirdcrank wrote:It's arguable that Bevan's big mistake was to put the £££ in the hands of the medics, .


Didn't he say something about "stopping their mouths with silver"?


The version I've heard is "stuffed their mouths with gold" but the message is pretty much the same.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aneurin_Bevan

KTHSullivan
Posts: 115
Joined: 4 Aug 2017, 1:15pm
Location: Wind Swept Lincolnshire

Re: May's ultimatum to Russia

Postby KTHSullivan » 15 Mar 2018, 5:47pm

PS: Sergei Skripal is neither a whistle blower nor a dissident. He was apparently a colonel in some part of the Russian military and a spy. That's not to say I think he's fair game for this sort of thing. If there's any long-term damage, it could be to reduce the willingness of others to do the same.


Don't remember saying he was, shame about the medal; but no great loss, left mine on my desk somewhere in the tropics and it melted!
Just remember, when you’re over the hill, you begin to pick up speed. :lol:

pete75
Posts: 12019
Joined: 24 Jul 2007, 2:37pm

Re: May's ultimatum to Russia

Postby pete75 » 15 Mar 2018, 10:44pm

KTHSullivan wrote:
PS: Sergei Skripal is neither a whistle blower nor a dissident. He was apparently a colonel in some part of the Russian military and a spy. That's not to say I think he's fair game for this sort of thing. If there's any long-term damage, it could be to reduce the willingness of others to do the same.


Don't remember saying he was, shame about the medal; but no great loss, left mine on my desk somewhere in the tropics and it melted!



KTHSullivan wrote:We could of course say nothing and glibly accept that a foreign power can run amuck at will in the UK. Or we could complain. Do we now consider that the murder of whistle blowers and or dissidents to be de rigour?


This part of your post about the incident certainly implies that.