May's ultimatum to Russia

[PH]

After all, we defeated communism some time ago.

Did we? I don't remember us doing that.

[thirdcrank]

People moan about long posts, so I try - not very successfully - to keep mine short. How about something along the lines of

After all, it's some years since the end of the so-called Cold War, which led to a reduced assessment of the military risk posed by the armed forces of the former Soviet Union (which ceased to exist at Crimbo 1991) and the subsequent withdrawal of a large standing army in Germany along with a substantial reduction in the defence budget devoted to readiness for the possibility of a conventional attack by the Red Army etc. Although it's been used elsewhere this was broadly referred to by the expression "Peace dividend."

It could be argued that the system in the former USSR wasn't communism it all, but that's how it was portrayed here and many thought it had been defeated. In its shortest for "we" thought that "they" were finished. Instead of Reds under the bed, we've got oligarchs in .... er .... Holland Park. The best I could think of in the short time I was prepared to devote to it.

[reohn2]

Whatever sanctions Mrs May and her cronies,err I mean government,impose on Russia,I hope they don't turn the gas off as a counter measure,it's still a bit chilly yet

PS, did someone mention a cold war

[661-Pete]

After all, we defeated communism some time ago.

I think it was the Soviet Union that was mainly responsible for that.

[Cunobelin]

Hope the UK sanctions are not too draconian; otherwise bang goes my proposed Russian doll import business

I get lots of email from Russian "Dolls" who wish to import themselves...............

[Cunobelin]

The Conservative party is in the pocket of foreign powers that represent a threat to the national security of Britain. It is a grotesquely under-reported national scandal, lost amid a hysterical Tory campaign to delegitimise the Labour party with false allegations of treason. If Labour had received £820,000 from Russian-linked oligarchs and companies in the past 20 months – and indeed £3m since 2010 – the media outrage would be deafening. But this is the Tory party, so there are no cries of treachery, of being in league with a hostile foreign power, of threatening the nation’s security.

It was 2014, and Lubov Chernukhin, the wife of Russia’s former deputy finance minister, paid the princely sum of £160,000 to play tennis with David Cameron and Boris Johnson. In total, since 2012 – when the Electoral Commission initially declared her an “impermissible donor”, before subsequently allowing her to donate – she has handed the Tories £514,000.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/mar/12/tory-links-russia-saudi-links-corbyn-spy-extremism

Absolutely appalling.....just as well this is an unbiased report

Just as we'll that Jeremy Corbyn and Labour have absolutely no connections whatsoever with Russia.......

[

[Mike Sales]

The Conservative party is in the pocket of foreign powers that represent a threat to the national security of Britain. It is a grotesquely under-reported national scandal, lost amid a hysterical Tory campaign to delegitimise the Labour party with false allegations of treason. If Labour had received £820,000 from Russian-linked oligarchs and companies in the past 20 months – and indeed £3m since 2010 – the media outrage would be deafening. But this is the Tory party, so there are no cries of treachery, of being in league with a hostile foreign power, of threatening the nation’s security.

It was 2014, and Lubov Chernukhin, the wife of Russia’s former deputy finance minister, paid the princely sum of £160,000 to play tennis with David Cameron and Boris Johnson. In total, since 2012 – when the Electoral Commission initially declared her an “impermissible donor”, before subsequently allowing her to donate – she has handed the Tories £514,000.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/mar/12/tory-links-russia-saudi-links-corbyn-spy-extremism

Absolutely appalling.....just as well this is an unbiased report

Just as we'll that Jeremy Corbyn and Labour have absolutely no connections whatsoever with Russia.......

[

Do you really think the paper has made this up? If what the Guardian says is not true, I would imagine that May and the Tories will not only be denying it and asking for a retraction to be printed, but they will also be suing the Guardian for libel. Wouldn't you agree? I have heard nothing yet, its but early days I suppose.
What connections do you allege Corbyn has with Russia? Please be more specific, "connections" is usefully vague. Imagine if Labour and Corbyn had pocketed £3.5m from, say, Cuba.

[pete75]

After all, we defeated communism some time ago.

That'll be why our PM recently paid a grovelling visit to Xi Jinping General Secretary of the Chinese Communist Party.

[Psamathe]

My impression is that the incident is a deliberate ploy by Putin for his domestic audience (given the coming elections). There are far more subtle ways for a "hit" to be carried out that are not so directly attributable to a single foreign power. I suspect Putin wanted the UK to lay into Russia so he (and his team) could start on about the West unfairly blaming Russia without evidence and how they need a strong leader to stand up for them, etc., etc.

Had Russia wanted to just remove an alleged ex-double agent with minimum of grief, many far easier ways that would be far harder to pin on Moscow.

And to that end May's response has probably been and achieved exactly what he set out to achieve.

Ian

[Mike Sales]

My impression is that the incident is a deliberate ploy by Putin for his domestic audience (given the coming elections). There are far more subtle ways for a "hit" to be carried out that are not so directly attributable to a single foreign power. I suspect Putin wanted the UK to lay into Russia so he (and his team) could start on about the West unfairly blaming Russia without evidence and how they need a strong leader to stand up for them, etc., etc.

Had Russia wanted to just remove an alleged ex-double agent with minimum of grief, many far easier ways that would be far harder to pin on Moscow.

And to that end May's response has probably been and achieved exactly what he set out to achieve.

Ian

My impression too. I have also heard it suggested that there are a lot of operatives in the elect Trump operation who can usefully be deterred from spilling the beans.

[Stevek76]

May also gets to look tough generically expelling some diplomats which might help her polling and therefore increase chances of brexit (of a more brexity brexit) which Putin is of course in favour of.

[Tangled Metal]

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/mar/12/tory-links-russia-saudi-links-corbyn-spy-extremism

Absolutely appalling.....just as well this is an unbiased report

Just as we'll that Jeremy Corbyn and Labour have absolutely no connections whatsoever with Russia.......

[

Do you really think the paper has made this up?

Actually the paper didn't write it. The comment is free strand on their website is a forum for opinion. It is not the opinion of the paper only those who send in their opinion pieces which of successful get a public airing without the paper editing or condoning it. Having said that the CiF has a well known left wing bias that's so extreme that even left wing journalists have protested about it after one of the few right wing contributors got censored.

So whilst technically true the tories receive donations from Russians, it is likely to be very biased to the point it isn't a fair assessment of whether that's right or wrong to accept the donation. Plus it is very unlikely to have the same level of criticism and study of labour donations.

To put it bluntly, if the phrase "commentisfree" appears in the website link you should discount it as a credible source of information IMHO. The use of such links in an argument on a forum gives me a big clue on the politics of a poster even without having read any of their posts.

However I do feel that both main parties take money from very dubious sources. The more I think about it the more I actually start to think political funding needs to be radically overhauled. Perhaps even becoming controlled or publicly funded. Take direct donations out of it somehow. One big pot from all donors that gets doled out in a fair manner. Whatever the system right now every main party has received dodgy donations. At least tory ones gets a lot of airing fun the likes of blinkered CiF polemics.

[PH]

People moan about long posts, so I try - not very successfully - to keep mine short. How about something along the lines of

After all, it's some years since the end of the so-called Cold War, which led to a reduced assessment of the military risk posed by the armed forces of the former Soviet Union (which ceased to exist at Crimbo 1991) and the subsequent withdrawal of a large standing army in Germany along with a substantial reduction in the defence budget devoted to readiness for the possibility of a conventional attack by the Red Army etc. Although it's been used elsewhere this was broadly referred to by the expression "Peace dividend."

It could be argued that the system in the former USSR wasn't communism it all, but that's how it was portrayed here and many thought it had been defeated. In its shortest for "we" thought that "they" were finished. Instead of Reds under the bed, we've got oligarchs in .... er .... Holland Park. The best I could think of in the short time I was prepared to devote to it.

Thanks for the history lesson, though it doesn't explain your comment. Firstly I find it odd that anyone should consider communism beaten when as pete75 touched on we're very much reliant on communist states and at least a quarter of the World's population live under communist regimes. Secondly, if you're only referring to the USSR, it's demise was mainly down to it's internal failings, if by "we" you mean the UK our influence was on the same level as it is now. If you mean the west in general, well it's complicated, Reagan escalated the arms spending and the rhetoric, but Bush had backed away from some of that. The collapse came about when Gorbachev simply got it wrong, his reforms were intended to work within the state not against it.

[Cyril Haearn]

Karl Marx is 200 years old, going to a exhibition about him
Salisbury has knocked b****t off the top of the news charts, +1

[thirdcrank]

... I find it odd that anyone should consider communism beaten ...

Quite. That was the point I was making, except I equated Russia with Communism, as do those with the world view I was trying to illustrate.

Taking a longer-term view, the vast size of what we lump together as "Russia" has always made it significant - look at the old Punch cartoons where it was typically represented as a bear - and that continues. We've never really decided whether it's a friend or foe. The fall of the very real Berlin Wall and the imaginary Iron Curtain led some to assume that "Russia's" importance was finished. How wrong they were. Eye off the ball.