Bottle deposits

[mercalia]

Another potential problem with a deposit scheme is that it may entice young kids to go looking for cash refund items in the most filthy of places just to make a few pennies. Would anyone here be happy with their kids rummaging about in a filthy ditch with dirty nappies, used condoms, hypodermic syringes with sharp needles, dog mess, ...just to find a quids worth refundable glass, tin or plastics?

yes I remember doing that as a kid with lemonade/fizzy drink bottles so not just hypothical

[mercalia]

According to an inflation calculator I found that old 2D we paid on a bottle, circa 1960, equates to 20p today. That could be a starting point.

I was walking behind a teenager(probably 13 or 14 tops) last week who dropped a 20p on the floor,she took a second to look at it but didn't bother to bend down and pick it up.
Make of that what you will,but I was quite surprised.

well I have seen buyers in Lidls not bother to pick up their copper change after buying their stuff, one lady I pointed out to oh she couldnt be bothered

[Cyril Haearn]

According to an inflation calculator I found that old 2D we paid on a bottle, circa 1960, equates to 20p today. That could be a starting point.

I was walking behind a teenager(probably 13 or 14 tops) last week who dropped a 20p on the floor,she took a second to look at it but didn't bother to bend down and pick it up.
Make of that what you will,but I was quite surprised.

well I have seen buyers in Lidls not bother to pick up their copper change after buying their stuff, one lady I pointed out to oh she couldnt be bothered

I pick up any coins I find even the smallest, if I find one I check for others nearby

The deposit/recycling thing in Germany has a lot to do with business €€€, it is typically German: complicated, smells of work (taz)
All food packing is recyclable, I put all mine in a yellow bag for collection, many do not bother
When one buys a drink in a deposit bottle the price is xx cents plus yy cents deposit, the retailer keeps your cash until you bring the bottle back, if the bottle is not returned the deposit is not paid out

If one strolls through a train towards the end of a long journey one can collect plenty of containers, people don't bother taking them home, beer cans are worth 25 c each

What is really c**p: millions of bottles of mineral water are sold, transported vast distances
Tap water is much better and much cheaper

[Mick F]

Chatting about this yesterday in the pub.

How are the supermarkets going to do this?
Imagine people buying their monthly shop .......... beer, wine, milk, general bottled stuff. What about jam and marmalade?

At the moment, people go to the bottle bank or put them out for collection. If we have to pay a deposit price, we'll want our money back of course.
A dozen bottles of Old Speckled Hen, three bottles of wine, maybe a vodka, and some cooking brandy. That's eighteen bottles at 20p(?) each, is £3.60

The supermarkets will be inundated with dirty empty bottles.

[Psamathe]

Chatting about this yesterday in the pub.

How are the supermarkets going to do this?
Imagine people buying their monthly shop .......... beer, wine, milk, general bottled stuff. What about jam and marmalade?

At the moment, people go to the bottle bank or put them out for collection. If we have to pay a deposit price, we'll want our money back of course.
A dozen bottles of Old Speckled Hen, three bottles of wine, maybe a vodka, and some cooking brandy. That's eighteen bottles at 20p(?) each, is £3.60

The supermarkets will be inundated with dirty empty bottles.

1. It will cost the supermarkets (handling, space, etc.)
2. It is part of the cost of our modern life

If the supermarkets pass on the cost or bear it themselves is irrelevant. We (as a society) chose to buy e.g. water in plastic bottles. We (as a society) have more than demonstrated we are not bothered about litter and waste so we (as a society) have to pay the price. As with all resources, if we (as a society) cannot use them responsibly then we must bear the cost of that stupidity.

Ian

[Cyril Haearn]

Buying water in a bottle is so senseless

What would happen if everybody did it?

[reohn2]

Chatting about this yesterday in the pub.

How are the supermarkets going to do this?
Imagine people buying their monthly shop .......... beer, wine, milk, general bottled stuff. What about jam and marmalade?

At the moment, people go to the bottle bank or put them out for collection. If we have to pay a deposit price, we'll want our money back of course.
A dozen bottles of Old Speckled Hen, three bottles of wine, maybe a vodka, and some cooking brandy. That's eighteen bottles at 20p(?) each, is £3.60

The supermarkets will be inundated with dirty empty bottles.

1. It will cost the supermarkets (handling, space, etc.)
2. It is part of the cost of our modern life

If the supermarkets pass on the cost or bear it themselves is irrelevant. We (as a society) chose to buy e.g. water in plastic bottles. We (as a society) have more than demonstrated we are not bothered about litter and waste so we (as a society) have to pay the price. As with all resources, if we (as a society) cannot use them responsibly then we must bear the cost of that stupidity.

Ian

Spot on!
The problem is we(as a society)have had it cushy for too long at the cost to the environment we constantly pollute in one form or another.
I still think it should be a minimum of 50p deposit but preferably £1 for all plastics and metal containers.

[Vorpal]

The papers here say studies have shown that litter is reduced, and recycling increased with bottle deposits. I haven't seen the actual studies, but If I find bottles along the road, they usually have a Swedish deposit.

Bottles can still be recycled with plastic recycling for those who can't be bothered to take them back to the shops. One of my neighbors gives his to the kid next door, who uses the deposit money to buy sweets & magazines.

[PH]

I'm inclined to think a few pennies here and there isn't going to change peoples behaviour, but then I thought the same about the carrier bag charge and was proved wrong, so who knows, must be worth a try.

[pwa]

The papers here say studies have shown that litter is reduced, and recycling increased with bottle deposits. I haven't seen the actual studies, but If I find bottles along the road, they usually have a Swedish deposit.

Bottles can still be recycled with plastic recycling for those who can't be bothered to take them back to the shops. One of my neighbors gives his to the kid next door, who uses the deposit money to buy sweets & magazines.

Why do they need to go back to the shops? Why not just have the bin / refund machine at the existing recycling facilities we have on the edge of the big supermarket car parks and in town centres? As civic facilities. An outdoor container is going to be easier, quicker and more cost effective to empty than one stuck at the back of a small shop.

[reohn2]

I'm inclined to think a few pennies here and there isn't going to change peoples behaviour, but then I thought the same about the carrier bag charge and was proved wrong, so who knows, must be worth a try.

Initially when I saw your post I agreed,but then I thought that with carrier bags you have a choice in the matter at point of sale.
With liquids and prepacked goods you don't,the choice only comes after the goods are consumed and the deposit is all but forgotten,unless the deposit is large enough not to forget and the empties are worth hanging onto to return.
That's my reasoning for larger deposits than something most people won't miss,of course I could be wrong

[Vorpal]

Why do they need to go back to the shops? Why not just have the bin / refund machine at the existing recycling facilities we have on the edge of the big supermarket car parks and in town centres? As civic facilities. An outdoor container is going to be easier, quicker and more cost effective to empty than one stuck at the back of a small shop.

Here, most of them are near the front of the shops. There's no reason not to put them outside. I think it's just easier to secure them inside. Also, most of the shops give credit against their own goods, to get people to come in and shop. You can get money, instead, but most people put the credit against their shopping, and I think it is to the shops' advantage to do it that way. I'm not sure how the emptying & post-return handling is managed, but the machines themselves don't take up that much space.

[Mick F]

I still think it should be a minimum of 50p deposit but preferably £1 for all plastics and metal containers.

I completely agree with you.

It's the returns system at a supermarket that I can't get my head round. Put a quid on a can. That makes a four-pack of beanz four quid more. Ok, we can afford this, but some folk can't.

So say we buy the beanz, scoff them, and then take the four cans back to the supermarket. Say you've got a conveyor belt full of your month's shopping ...................... plus maybe eight empty beanz cans, mushy peas cans, beer bottles, wine bottles, milk bottles ................ it can't work like that.

There would have to be a separate area with a few skips, manned by the supermarket staff with a till full of coins and/or loads of credit notes. This means that instead of waiting in one queue at the checkouts, you're going to have to queue at a skip first.

It can't work like that either.

[Cyril Haearn]

Chatting about this yesterday in the pub.

How are the supermarkets going to do this?
Imagine people buying their monthly shop .......... beer, wine, milk, general bottled stuff. What about jam and marmalade?

At the moment, people go to the bottle bank or put them out for collection..
..
..
.

Many do, I love the sound of breaking glass, I walk to the container (many drive there)
Many do not, the Restmuell (other rubbish) containers are full of stuff that could be recycled, I fear that distributing ones rubbish correctly is not required by law %(
There is no deposit on many items in Germany including jamjars and many drinks bottles
But they are marked as recyclable, there are recycling bins at stations, in shops &c

[reohn2]

I still think it should be a minimum of 50p deposit but preferably £1 for all plastics and metal containers.

I completely agree with you.

It's the returns system at a supermarket that I can't get my head round. Put a quid on a can. That makes a four-pack of beanz four quid more. Ok, we can afford this, but some folk can't.

So say we buy the beanz, scoff them, and then take the four cans back to the supermarket. Say you've got a conveyor belt full of your month's shopping ...................... plus maybe eight empty beanz cans, mushy peas cans, beer bottles, wine bottles, milk bottles ................ it can't work like that.

There would have to be a separate area with a few skips, manned by the supermarket staff with a till full of coins and/or loads of credit notes. This means that instead of waiting in one queue at the checkouts, you're going to have to queue at a skip first.

It can't work like that either.

There's an initial cost (call it an investment in the environment) of whatever your weekly outlay in can and plastic consumption is,after that you've bought into a better environment.
The cost handling of the physical plastic and metal packaging recycling is borne by the producers of it,we the general public are only handlers of it and as such a worthwhile deposit system ensures the it goes back to from whence it came,via an automated machine that collects packaging and spits out vouchers to be used in the shop it's outside of,all paid for by those who manufacture the waste.
That to me seems a fair way of making the companies who sell the produce responsible for recycling it's waste,which it presently couldn't give a monkey's for once it's sold. That's because the rest of society currently pays their bill through council tax and a growing plastic waste problem.
Here's a couple of examples of how things could work differently,Dove liquid soap is sold at a £1 for 250ml in it's own total loss pump dispenser,the same soap could be sold in either bulk 2litre plastic bottles with a deposit on the bottle,to be dispensed by the consumer at home into the more conveniently sized 250ml pumps or actually dispensed in the shop straight into the 250ml(or better still 500ml) pumps.Alternatively individual bars of soap come in a card box,peoplee only buy liquid pumps presently because they're convenient.

Beans are sold in cans because they've alway bean(sorry)sold in cans because they have a looonnnggg shelf life,but they could equally be sold in a similar square carton like long life milk is sold in.
There'll be many more examples.

IMO the packaging industry could get quite inventive if forced to and so not only cut down on recycling but also cut down plastics altogether if they went over to biodegradable or recyclable paper cartons,it's only favourable legislation that allows them to continue as they are.
IMO 20p will allow them to continue as they are presently without too much concern,whereas a worthwhile deposit system would bring us all up short as to the real problem we have with waste,but 20p won't lose many votes will it?

EDIT:- what we as a society need to ask ourselves is what we are prepared to do about this problem?