Hither Green 'burglar' stabbing: Man, 78, arrested

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pete75
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Re: Hither Green 'burglar' stabbing: Man, 78, arrested

Post by pete75 »

thirdcrank wrote:
... I suspect that when the media really get going with this we'll have some frantic activity in Downing Street. ...


I think that's played a big part here.


Not to mention how they can work the other way - for example police really used the media to push their lies about Hillsborough and Orgreave.
'Give me my bike, a bit of sunshine - and a stop-off for a lunchtime pint - and I'm a happy man.' - Reg Baker
thirdcrank
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Re: Hither Green 'burglar' stabbing: Man, 78, arrested

Post by thirdcrank »

One thing that's reminiscent of more recent media coverage of Hillsborough is that the BBC has published a gallery of pictures of the currently 52 people recently "killed in London." One difference is that almost half the names have a blank rather than a picture of the deceased. There is a picture of Henry Vincent who died as a result of this incident but AFAIK, it's a police photo, published when he was circulated as wanted in connection with another alleged burglary.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-43640475

In another BBC item

London violence: Met chief says police have control of streets

Ms Dick said she does not believe the recent spike in attacks is due to cuts to police budgets, adding that arrests have already been made in the five murder investigations that have been launched since Monday.
(My emphasis.)


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lo ... ting-story

Once upon a time, counting arrests was an American police thing, presumably as a result of a legal system so complex that once a case is handed over to the DA, anything might happen. In spite of some well-publicised cases of the books being rigged, AFAIK, the relevant measure in the E&W is if a suspect has been charged or a summons issued.

Anyway, my is interpretation is that the figures include the arrest on suspicion of murder of Mr Osborn-Brooks. Now, that case certainly seems to illustrate the thoroughness with which the Metropolitan Police Service investigates some matters and it's apparent that this investigation occupied a lot of time and effort. However, to portray the arrest of an elderly man confronted with two intruders in his own home during the night, especially when one of those men was apparently circulated as wanted by a neighbouring police force from whose area these men had driven unnoticed by the police, as any sort of a success in "the never-ending fight against crime" is clutching at straws. IMO
mercalia
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Re: Hither Green 'burglar' stabbing: Man, 78, arrested

Post by mercalia »

Yes I was reading in the Telegraph that the police now dont respond to burglarys in person any more unless there likely to be some forensic evidence like cct that might lead to identification and conviction, but deal with it over the phone :shock: 2/3 of cases are not dealt with properly they says - 64% are never solved and in some areas 9 out of 10 are written off without any action. Last year 127,617 burglary investigations were closed without any suspect being identified, leaving the victim with no hope of justice.
thirdcrank
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Re: Hither Green 'burglar' stabbing: Man, 78, arrested

Post by thirdcrank »

When discussing burglary stats, it's important to be clear what's in the data. As I've posted somewhere above, burglary used to be restricted to breaking in to a dwellinghouse in the night time, intending to commit a felony, or breaking out after committing one. Leeser offences were things like housebreaking (from the days when "house" meant a building, rather than a dwellinghouse.) That changed under the Theft Act 1968 to entering any building as a trespasser, with intent etc. Nipping round the counter in a shop to steal when nobody was looking was suddenly burglary, which tended to reduce the seriousness of crimes like the one which is the subject of this thread.

As a young PC, probably too clever by half, I had more than my fair share of being what we called a "clerk" especially on nights. The clerks were generally older-end PC's who worked shifts dealing with the public counter, answering phones, acting as gaoler and generally doing a lot of operational typing in between. That included typing-up newly reported crimes. I remember a very senior (in service) detective sergeant getting beside himself when he found me recording a theft of lead piping from an outside lavatory as burglary.

(This refers only to England and Wales. I believe that in Scotland the equivalent is or was "opening lockfast premises." OLP. irc's your man here.
gnvqsos
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Re: Hither Green 'burglar' stabbing: Man, 78, arrested

Post by gnvqsos »

When I was on jury service one of the cases involved a claim of self defence. The judge explained that self defence involved reasonable and sufficient force to repel the attack and no more. Is killing someone reasonable force?


You easily kill someone using reasonable force,for exaple pushing someone who subsequently bangs their head on the floor.This did used to happen to many members of ethnic minorities being held in custody by the Met- a mixture of ethnis minority fragility and bad luck in the case of the police who were often more clumsy when confronting people of non Caucasian origin.
mercalia
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Re: Hither Green 'burglar' stabbing: Man, 78, arrested

Post by mercalia »

since the case is now closed we will never now know what happened?

I suspect some thing like this - the burglar who died forced the oap into/or to stay in the kitchen so that the other guy could have a look around for things to steal going upstairs, he did so brandishing the screw driver weapon. The oap refused as his handicapped wife was upstairs, so a scuffle ensued with both grappling with the screwdriver and the burglar got stabbed with it?
pwa
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Re: Hither Green 'burglar' stabbing: Man, 78, arrested

Post by pwa »

gnvqsos wrote:When I was on jury service one of the cases involved a claim of self defence. The judge explained that self defence involved reasonable and sufficient force to repel the attack and no more. Is killing someone reasonable force?


You easily kill someone using reasonable force,for exaple pushing someone who subsequently bangs their head on the floor.This did used to happen to many members of ethnic minorities being held in custody by the Met- a mixture of ethnis minority fragility and bad luck in the case of the police who were often more clumsy when confronting people of non Caucasian origin.


The law now recognises that in the heat of the moment people defending themselves in their homes cannot be expected to make fine judgements about the amount of force or correct weapon to use. So if you are backed into a corner in your own kitchen, stabbing them with a kitchen knife is reasonable. But chasing them down the street and stabbing them when they have fled is not self-defence. That is the sort of line that is drawn.
thirdcrank
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Re: Hither Green 'burglar' stabbing: Man, 78, arrested

Post by thirdcrank »

Tangled Metal wrote:Can you really kill someone with a simple scuffle and a screwdriver? Wouldn't it need to be a very unlucky tussle that resulted in the burglars death by screwdriver and 78 year old man. If indeed the weapon was the screwdriver.


Why was a screwdriver being used in the first place? A screwdriver is a sort of Jekyll and Hyde bit of kit.

It's easily obtained by theft from any toolbox or if you have to buy one, readily available in any size you like at toolshops and no questions asked about age or anything else. It's possession is not specifically banned. It's easily carried eg concealed up a sleeve and easily dumped if necessary. It's the ideal tool for prising open doors and windows or anything needing leverage. While it has no cutting edge, it's a very effective weapon for stabbing.

If you are caught in possession of one, the burden of proof of a naughty intent is on the prosecution. There's always the chance that some bourgeois type - I have in mind Giles on Gogglebox - will fall for a cotton wool story about jobseeking.
pete75
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Re: Hither Green 'burglar' stabbing: Man, 78, arrested

Post by pete75 »

thirdcrank wrote:
If you are caught in possession of one, the burden of proof of a naughty intent is on the prosecution.


As it should be. If it were otherwise anyone with a toolkit in their car or on their bike could be prosecuted. A lot of tools could be said to be weapons but intent must be proved.
When I was a lad almost all of use had a pocket knife or a sheath knife. None of us stabbed anybody but I bet these days a 13 year old lad with such a thing would be prosecuted without any evidence they wanted to use it for illegal purposes.
'Give me my bike, a bit of sunshine - and a stop-off for a lunchtime pint - and I'm a happy man.' - Reg Baker
thirdcrank
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Re: Hither Green 'burglar' stabbing: Man, 78, arrested

Post by thirdcrank »

pete75 wrote:
thirdcrank wrote:
If you are caught in possession of one, the burden of proof of a naughty intent is on the prosecution.


As it should be. ....


I'm not suggesting any other, just explaining how it is. Some of this is the legal advice you alluded to upthread. It's available from all sorts of sources and circulates quickly.

Another question might be "Why target the elderly?" They are sometimes easily conned, especially by anybody who appears official. Their ability to recognise faces may be impaired and so they may not be good at the identification of suspects. They may be affected by dementia etc., and even if they are not, they can be portrayed as such. Perhaps not as much as was once the case, older people often prefer to use cash, using the "sock under the bed" in preference to a bank. They tend to be more frail than younger people and so may be more easily intimidated and not capable of resisting force. Even if a suspect is arrested and charged, the typical legal delays before a hearing may mean they die before giving evidence.

I don't think that's how it should be.
mercalia
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Re: Hither Green 'burglar' stabbing: Man, 78, arrested

Post by mercalia »

now if this was Alabama USA then the burglar's accomplice could be tried for murder - felony murder :shock:

"After police killed a burglary suspect in a shootout, the officer was not charged - instead a teenage boy (accomplice ) who did not fire the gun has been found guilty of his murder."

talk about twisted laws :?

"Alabama's law is an example of so-called felony-murder laws and they are very common throughout the US - only seven states do not have some type of law that expands the definition of murder to include an unintentional killing in the course of committing a felony. These laws also sweep up accomplices who, again, may not have directly caused harm, but were still a party in the felony that preceded the death. " :? :cry:


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-43673331
Last edited by mercalia on 9 Apr 2018, 6:41am, edited 1 time in total.
Cyril Haearn
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Re: Hither Green 'burglar' stabbing: Man, 78, arrested

Post by Cyril Haearn »

Most households have long sharp pointed bread knives, they do not need to be sharp and pointed
The BMA suggested restricting the sale if such knives, +1
As one knows most violence takes place within the family/household, not with strangers

The shock one feels when suddenly disturbed by a stranger in the dwelling is hard to imagine especially when children are present. I am a harmless sheep but I might go mad in that situation
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Cunobelin
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Re: Hither Green 'burglar' stabbing: Man, 78, arrested

Post by Cunobelin »

pete75 wrote:
thirdcrank wrote:
If you are caught in possession of one, the burden of proof of a naughty intent is on the prosecution.


As it should be. If it were otherwise anyone with a toolkit in their car or on their bike could be prosecuted. A lot of tools could be said to be weapons but intent must be proved.
When I was a lad almost all of use had a pocket knife or a sheath knife. None of us stabbed anybody but I bet these days a 13 year old lad with such a thing would be prosecuted without any evidence they wanted to use it for illegal purposes.



Tool kits are a matter for discussion in themselves as many (Topeka Alien) for instance have blades that lock into place and are technically illegal

However you are unlikely to be arrested for carrying it in a case within a tool kit at he bottom of the panniers and you have a good "reason" for carrying it...... but in your pocket in the Pub is a different matter
thirdcrank
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Re: Hither Green 'burglar' stabbing: Man, 78, arrested

Post by thirdcrank »

From mercalia's link:-

While rooted in English common law, felony-murder is a rare concept outside of the US.


It's based on the concept of "implied malice."

Current English law will apply here. We now know there's no "back story" in this case:-

(The senior investigating officer) said: "While there might be various forms of debate about which processes should be used in cases such as this, it was important that the resident was interviewed by officers under the appropriate legislation; not only for the integrity of our investigation but also so that his personal and legal rights were protected."


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-43676359

Any meaningful further debate will be in a civil court if there's a claim for compo. I'm grateful to shootist for a link to a case on powers of arrest. (Although quite recent it may already be out-of-date. I've edited it to highlight the bits which seem relevant to our discussion.)

Lord Hanningfield of Chelmsford v Chief Constable of Essex Police [2013]

Was the arrest necessary?

13 ... The next question to be determined, therefore, is whether the arrest itself was indeed lawful.

That must be resolved by reference, (to) general principles governing arrest. In particular, it is necessary to have regard to s.24 of PACE governing "arrest without warrant". The power of summary arrest may only be exercised if the relevant officer ... had reasonable grounds for believing that it was "necessary" to do so: s.24(4). That must be judged, in turn, against the reasons specified in s.24(5):

"...
(e) to allow the prompt and effective investigation of the offence or of the conduct of the person in question;
...

20 My attention was drawn to the latest guidance on the statutory power of arrest contained in Code G at Note 2F:

"An officer who believes that it is necessary to interview the person suspected of committing the offence must then consider whether their arrest is necessary in order to carry out the interview. The officer is not required to interrogate the suspect to determine whether they will attend a police station voluntarily to be interviewed but they must consider whether the suspect's voluntary attendance is a practicable alternative for carrying out the interview. If it is, then arrest would not be necessary. Conversely, an officer who considers this option but is not satisfied that it is a practicable alternative, may have reasonable grounds for deciding that the arrest is necessary at the outset 'on the street'. Without such considerations, the officer would not be able to establish that arrest was necessary in order to interview."

26 To the casual observer, these issues may seem rather technical, but it is necessary always to remember the importance of the safeguards provided by the legislature as to powers of arrest and search. The burden clearly rests on the (police) to establish that it was necessary to arrest (the suspect.) ...
...
29 ... It is not for a judge to second guess the operational decisions of experienced police officers, but in the circumstances of this case I cannot accept that there was any rational basis for rejecting alternative procedures, such as (asking him to attend a police station voluntarily.) .....


The judge went on to discuss the subsequent detention at the police station which was also unlawful. The suspect in the current case seems to have been detained longer than 24 hours, which AFAIK requires the authorisation of a superintendent

http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/QB/2013/243.html

We may never know the outcome because AFAIK, the Receiver of the Metropolitan Police - not a "fence" BTW - often takes the same line as the zoo manager in Albert and the Lion but with a confidentiality clause.
How much to settle the matter?
thirdcrank
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Re: Hither Green 'burglar' stabbing: Man, 78, arrested

Post by thirdcrank »

Meanwhile, in other news, the deceased alleged burglar's accomplice is still at large, possibly relieved and even feeling a tad self-righteous with all the official attention to the person who had the effrontery to intervene.

If the Metropolitan Police Service should actually arrest this alleged burglar, the bailed murder suspect will be a star prosecution witness.


In even more news

Hither Green burglary suspect hunted by Met Police

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-43704102
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