Bikes on trains and a moral conundrum

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PH
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Re: Bikes on trains and a moral conundrum

Post by PH »

661-Pete wrote:
pete75 wrote:Never heard of this - bikes in the same carriage as passengers seems an odd arrangement.

That's commonplace on Southern.

And Cross Country, Midland Mainline, Trans Pennine, Northern, Scotrail and I've probably forgotten some, of those where the bike isn't in a locked compartment it's still often hung next to the door and accessible to all. I don't know what routes pete75 uses but bikes being locked away is a bit of a rarity on the trains I've used up and down the country.
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Re: Bikes on trains and a moral conundrum

Post by lbomaak2 »

I'm not a frequent user of trains with my bike, but over the years I have travelled on trains with just about every variety of bicycle accommodation there is. I seem to have been really lucky on those occasions when I have used a busy train. The typical scenario when boarding is that the train conductor is far too busy to even notice me trying to board with my bike; I board after the last passenger waiting at the same door; I carefully manoeuvre my bike towards the area where it is supposed to be stored; if it's an area shared by passengers, e.g. on tip-up seats, I position myself to cause them the least discomfort, and usually they rearrange themselves to make space for me; obviously I am happy to stand with my bike for the entire journey if necessary. So maybe I have just been lucky to always meet good-tempered passengers; or do I just have a friendly face? :)

With regard to booking bikes on trains: last year I made two return journeys from Loughborough to North Wales, which involves at least 4 trains with 4 different Train Operating Companies. I am fairly good at navigating around TOC websites, but no way was I going to bother to try to book all that. On the other hand, on a journey from Cambridge to Loughborough at a busy time, I had bought an advance ticket on a specified train and booked my bike on the same train. At Cambridge station I let other passengers on first as usual; the train was absolutely packed by the time I entered, but somehow the crowd standing in one of the vestibules parted enough to let me on with the bike. Bikes don't actually take such a huge amount of space.
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Re: Bikes on trains and a moral conundrum

Post by thirdcrank »

As I've often quoted my dear old dad, "What would happen if everybody did it?" ie Turned up at the station riding a bike and wanted to travel onward by train with their bike.

I often hear the Netherlands referred to as the cycling heaven on Earth. Now, IIRC, there's a post on here somewhere from CJ explaining that as it's impossible, even in a country with good public transport, for everybody to expect their bike to be carried, they park them at the station and continue bikeless on the train.
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Re: Bikes on trains and a moral conundrum

Post by reohn2 »

thirdcrank wrote:As I've often quoted my dear old dad, "What would happen if everybody did it?" ie Turned up at the station riding a bike and wanted to travel onward by train with their bike.

I often hear the Netherlands referred to as the cycling heaven on Earth. Now, IIRC, there's a post on here somewhere from CJ explaining that as it's impossible, even in a country with good public transport, for everybody to expect their bike to be carried, they park them at the station and continue bikeless on the train.

And a lot of NL commuters have another bike parked at the station at the other end.
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Re: Bikes on trains and a moral conundrum

Post by mjr »

661-Pete wrote:
pete75 wrote:Never heard of this - bikes in the same carriage as passengers seems an odd arrangement.

That's commonplace on Southern. Indeed the 'official' bike spaces on the older 'class 319' electric units were set in front of tip-up seats - similar to that described by Horizon in the OP. If passengers were occupying those seats, there was no official bike space - but everyone put their bikes in the door bays anyway. You just have to be careful, as the train approaches a station, that the bike isn't on the platform side... The class 319 and 377's are being replaced with the more modern 'class 700' stock, and I can't recall how the cycle space is arranged there - but it will certainly be something similar in the passenger space.

No, bikes only compete with large luggage on the 700s. There are at least two bike compartments, each able to take up to 4 or 5 bikes, depending on handlebars clashing... then you could sneak another one or two in the door bays if no-one is stopping you and Thameslink is often driver-and-platform-staff, not guards.
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Re: Bikes on trains and a moral conundrum

Post by mjr »

bovlomov wrote:But the cyclist's special needs are elective, so they go to the back of the queue.

Yeah, so elective, wanting to do a bike-train-bike journey. Bloody cyclists should drive like everyone else, except those filling up the trains... :roll:

I suspect that cycles travel free only because a fare would bring 'expectations'.

Yes, I'd pay like in Belgium, but I'd want more assurance that I'd arrive on time, not be booted to make space for free-riding suitcases.
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Re: Bikes on trains and a moral conundrum

Post by bovlomov »

mjr wrote:
bovlomov wrote:But the cyclist's special needs are elective, so they go to the back of the queue.

Yeah, so elective, wanting to do a bike-train-bike journey. Bloody cyclists should drive like everyone else, except those filling up the trains... :roll:

I suspect that cycles travel free only because a fare would bring 'expectations'.

Yes, I'd pay like in Belgium, but I'd want more assurance that I'd arrive on time, not be booted to make space for free-riding suitcases.

To clarify: that wasn't my opinion, but it's how I imagine these decisions are arrived at.

I agree. I'd prefer to pay, if it ended the uncertainty.
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horizon
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Re: Bikes on trains and a moral conundrum

Post by horizon »

thirdcrank wrote:As I've often quoted my dear old dad, "What would happen if everybody did it?" ie Turned up at the station riding a bike and wanted to travel onward by train with their bike.



The good thing is they don't (the bad thing being that so few people are cyclists). As Ibomaark2 described above, it's possible to travel all over the UK on trains and rarely encounter a problem with taking your bike aboard. Two bikes spaces is the norm, four a luxury but neither used that much. Once I had an eight train journey from Cornwall to Kent but no problem. Even at rush hour, the problem is the sheer number of commuters, not the proportion of them with bikes.

The train that I was trying to get on had four bike spaces, unusual for a small train, but all available. The problem was the number of bikeless passengers, the amount of luggage and the fact that it was a two-car train on the main line. Bikes certainly weren't the issue.

But if you want everyone to get on the train quickly, it's handy if there's an "out-group" that you can select from to take the damage. And, right on cue, two cyclists turned up. Yes, we had tickets, yes, there were spaces, yes, our journeys were important. And no, our bikes weren't excessively large and indeed had space available for them, double the amount needed in fact. Our needs and indeed our rights were the same as everyone else's. But we were picked out to remain standing on the platform, itself a very rare occurrence in the UK if you have the correct ticket.

The reason I posted this is because it didn't feel like "OK, it's full, we'll wait for the next one" (like bus passengers do). And in fact no-one did have to wait for the next one, except us. So that's why it went from a case of the usual GWR inadequacies to a spine-chilling sense that we were different from the other passengers. Bikes have been identified as the cause and solution of the problem of overcrowding when in fact they are neither. But it satisfies those who believe that by scapegoating one group and distributing their rights amongst the others you are somehow alleviating the problem (GWR must love their passengers). That is why for me it is a moral issue (as well as one of utter shortsightedness, lazy thinking and poor problem solving) and why I've posted about it.

This incident felt as though, writ large, it had appalling parallels with other greater social issues (especially the circumstances of the railway station and guards, being called out and such like) but I have to be careful not to exaggerate my case. Nevertheless, in a microcosm, the right ingredients were all there. That's why although I will get over it, in a way GWR will not as it reflects the way they deal with problems that is inherent to their company culture. I feel sorry too for the passengers whose lives revolve around a belief in a finite cake that if shared too generously leaves them short.

My last word at this point is to say that I'm very grateful for the comments so far but am very happy to continue the discussion. :D
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Re: Bikes on trains and a moral conundrum

Post by thirdcrank »

horizon

Despite a post which competes with some of mine for length, you seem to miss my point that the greater the growth of cycling, the more impractical it is likely to become for riders to be able to use a train as part of their journey with a bike.
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Re: Bikes on trains and a moral conundrum

Post by horizon »

thirdcrank wrote:horizon

Despite a post which competes with some of mine for length, you seem to miss my point that the greater the growth of cycling, the more impractical it is likely to become for riders to be able to use a train as part of their journey with a bike.


And despite all I have written, it's hard for me to explain (i.e. to get my head round) that it isn't the bikes that are the problem. This might be counter-intuitive, but a crowded train is made up largely of people without bikes. On my train in question, there were no bikes apart from the two - normally it is just mine. Getting rid of the bike spaces doesn't solve the overcrowding, it just makes travel impossible for a tiny number of people. That's how this "problem" gets solved at the moment. I reckon that two spaces per carriage on all trains would probably meet 99% of all cycling needs. I would love to think people are getting all "bike and train" conscious but they aren't. And if they were, they would no longer be a tiny minority and treated as though they were dispensable. The bike and train combination is probably the best and most practical transport solution known to man and yet I assure you that more money is put into researching how to get people to Mars. If the bike spaces get removed, I cannot travel by train at all. Progress? I don't think so. Fair? Not that either.

Capacity on trains might be an issue and can be dealt with in different ways. Starting with bikes is what I believe is called proximity thinking. While I have been referring to train travel in the south west, I am not even sure it doesn't apply to crowded commuter trains around London. But if GWR and their passengers can shift the blame onto a small and scruffy group of outsiders then it will serve their purpose of deflecting the problem but it won't get anyone seats on trains (well, OK, two people).

And just to say again, this is why I have posted this as a moral not as an operational issue.
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Re: Bikes on trains and a moral conundrum

Post by bikepacker »

PH wrote: I don't know what routes pete75 uses but bikes being locked away is a bit of a rarity on the trains I've used up and down the country.


Pendolinos, Class 800s, HSTs, Adelantes, Class 90s and Eurostar are some of the trains in service all using locked compartments for bikes.
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Re: Bikes on trains and a moral conundrum

Post by PH »

bikepacker wrote:
PH wrote: I don't know what routes pete75 uses but bikes being locked away is a bit of a rarity on the trains I've used up and down the country.


Pendolinos, Class 800s, HSTs, Adelantes, Class 90s and Eurostar are some of the trains in service all using locked compartments for bikes.

I'm talking about what I've experienced.
But if you want to further this line, I can google what percentage of trains are in those classes, I'd bet it's a minority.
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Re: Bikes on trains and a moral conundrum

Post by 661-Pete »

The distinction is between the high-speed, long-distance trains where most passengers will be on advance tickets in reserved seats - on that sort of train the bikes are more likely to be hidden away somewhere (you generally have to make a bike reservation in any case). I was talking about the shorter-hop high-density trains used on Southern and other commuting areas. They don't have any guards van etc.

Isn't it a shame we don't get this sort of service any more: :(
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Re: Bikes on trains and a moral conundrum

Post by pete75 »

PH wrote:
bikepacker wrote:
PH wrote: I don't know what routes pete75 uses but bikes being locked away is a bit of a rarity on the trains I've used up and down the country.


Pendolinos, Class 800s, HSTs, Adelantes, Class 90s and Eurostar are some of the trains in service all using locked compartments for bikes.

I'm talking about what I've experienced.
But if you want to further this line, I can google what percentage of trains are in those classes, I'd bet it's a minority.


Dunno but on the railway nearest to me and which I frequently use all the trains are like that. What I said clearly states what I've experienced.
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Re: Bikes on trains and a moral conundrum

Post by PH »

661-Pete wrote:The distinction is between the high-speed, long-distance trains where most passengers will be on advance tickets in reserved seats - on that sort of train the bikes are more likely to be hidden away somewhere (you generally have to make a bike reservation in any case). I was talking about the shorter-hop high-density trains used on Southern and other commuting areas. They don't have any guards van etc.

Even on most of the long distance trains I've used the bike storage is more likely to be like this
Image
Not in the passenger compartment, but not locked away either.
Image kindly supplied by Google
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