War without a vote?

[Cunobelin]

Arguably

A known violent individual walks into a pub with a knife

Someone takes the knife away

You cannot “prove” that this act saved lives, nor has it prevented them going home and getting another knife

All that can be said is that a particular knife has been prevented from causing any injury

... or you could have left him with the knife until he did injure someone

[Psamathe]

Arguably

A known violent individual walks into a pub with a knife

Someone takes the knife away

You cannot “prove” that this act saved lives, nor has it prevented them going home and getting another knife

All that can be said is that a particular knife has been prevented from causing any injury

... or you could have left him with the knife until he did injure someone

But by your analogy we (Trump/May/Macaroon) have not yet even established that he had the knife; the inspectors had only recently arrived in the area and were some way off reporting.

Ian

[Psamathe]

"But in the legal justification on the "human suffering" grounds, terms like "it must be objectively clear that there is no practicable alternative to the use of force if lives are to be saved" and "requiring immediate and urgent relief" suggest it related to existing human suffering rather than the possibility of it happening in future." (my emphasis).

"...suggest..." is the important word here! Lives cannot be saved retrospectively, so could only refer to the present or the future and there is nothing in the wording to rule in or out either of those.

So should Putin be bombing our motorways to save us from future deaths. The wording I quoted was extracts demonstrating that teh clauses were intended to allow for relief efforts not (as we now learn from our Foreign Secretary) punishment and to deter others.

Ian

[landsurfer]

But by your analogy we (Trump/May/Macaroon) have not yet even established that he had the knife; the inspectors had only recently arrived in the area and were some way off reporting.

Ian

In the pub are 70 bodies, all with knife / stab wounds but of course that is no evidence that a knife was used.

[Psamathe]

But by your analogy we (Trump/May/Macaroon) have not yet even established that he had the knife; the inspectors had only recently arrived in the area and were some way off reporting.

Ian

In the pub are 70 bodies, all with knife / stab wounds but of course that is no evidence that a knife was used. :roll:

You've stretched the analogy beyond what it was intended to illustrate. Why not wait for the police report before launching missiles in a punishment strike (punishment according to Boris Johnson).

Ian

[pete75]

Bit of a dilemma for Putin! If he does nothing, his hard man image damaged at home. But can he rule out a full-on "let's wipe out Moscow NOW" reaction from the loony in The White House? He'll look a real softie if transpires that May has more bottle than he does!

Cummon Vlad if ya think yer 'ard enuff!

Except of course she didn't order any attacks on Russian targets. Much as they'd like to I think May and Trump are frightened of going to war with Russia.

[thirdcrank]

In the Cold War days, it was widely assumed that WWIII would begin when the only practical NATO defence against waves of Red Army tanks would be tactical nuclear weapons. OTOH, It seems to me that historically, the Russian way has been to absorb the attacks then retaliate. It's a vast country and in many areas thinly populated. I understand the Moscow underground was built to serve as nuclear shelters. I can't imagine anybody doing well in a nuclear war, but I suspect Russia might not do so badly as we would in the UK.

[djnotts]

Overall Russia is very sparsely populated and thus in theory should "survive" a mass nuclear attack more easily than say the UK - the largest device ever tested (by Russia) would apparently kill 6m with just one hit on London. BUT a large proportion of the Russian population is urban and thus vulnerable to a relatively small number of hits.

" Russia ranks number 9 in the list of countries (and dependencies) by population. The population density in Russia is 9 per Km2 (23 people per mi2). The total land area is 16,299,981 Km2 (6,293,455 sq. miles) 73.2 % of the population is urban (104,883,814 people in 2017) The median age in Russia is 38.9 years."

In a conventional war, yes, the old defence in depth doctrine would hold good - all the more reason for opponents to go for the nuclear option. When acquisition of territory and hence resources was the objective Russia was in a position of some strength (ask Napoleon and Hitler). When simply a case of holding what one already has, Russia becomes as vulnerable as more densely peopled states.

CF UK:

"The population density in the United Kingdom is 275 per Km2 (713 people per mi2).
The total land area is 241,930 Km2 (93,410 sq. miles)
81.2 % of the population is urban (54,072,374 people in 2018)"

[landsurfer]

But by your analogy we (Trump/May/Macaroon) have not yet even established that he had the knife; the inspectors had only recently arrived in the area and were some way off reporting.

Ian

In the pub are 70 bodies, all with knife / stab wounds but of course that is no evidence that a knife was used.

You've stretched the analogy beyond what it was intended to illustrate. Why not wait for the police report before launching missiles in a punishment strike (punishment according to Boris Johnson).

Ian

Why not just do nothing until the next chemical attack, and the next and the next .... 17 in the past 12 months .. Just let the Assad regime keep killing while you wring your liberal hands .... Some may say .....

[Psamathe]

In the pub are 70 bodies, all with knife / stab wounds but of course that is no evidence that a knife was used. :roll:

You've stretched the analogy beyond what it was intended to illustrate. Why not wait for the police report before launching missiles in a punishment strike (punishment according to Boris Johnson).

Ian

Why not just do nothing until the next chemical attack, and the next and the next .... 17 in the past 12 months .. Just let the Assad regime keep killing while you wring your liberal hands .... Some may say ..... :shock:

If you read the posts I made I was not arguing to do anything nor to do nothing. The discussion was about the legal case and the timing. Don't put words or opionons on people where they have not expressed those opinions or in my case explicitly not made such opinions:

".....
None of this per se indicates that I support the action that was taken.

"None of this per se indicates that I support the action that was taken." - likewise for myself. I've been somewhat preoccupied with family issues so don't understand all the details.

But in the legal justification ......
Ian

Ian

[mercalia]

there was a video of a young girl maybe 6 or 6? reporting her experiences after the attack, on the bbc news website today. now seems to have gone. One thing that raised my eyebrow at the end before she was cut off was she started to talk about the martyrs and the blood, which made be wonder whether she had been coached, thats how she sounded at the end, the last 2 seconds or so. so the Russians may have a point in that it not all as it seemed?

ah here it is

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-middle-east-43776015/syria-chemical-attack-family-seen-in-hospital-video-speak

what do you think? listen particularly at the end. "saw how they were bringing the martyrs. we breathed the smell of blood" rather precocious atleast?

[Ben@Forest]

there was a video of a young girl maybe 6 or 6? reporting her experiences after the attack, on the bbc news website today. now seems to have gone. One thing that raised my eyebrow at the end before she was cut off was she started to talk about the martyrs and the blood, which made be wonder whether she had been coached, thats how she sounded at the end, the last 2 seconds or so. so the Russians may have a point in that it not all as it seemed?

ah here it is

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-middle-east-43776015/syria-chemical-attack-family-seen-in-hospital-video-speak

what do you think? listen particularly at the end. "saw how they were bringing the martyrs. we breathed the smell of blood" rather precocious atleast?

It appears as if she is looking at someone to the side of the camera for reassurance or to ensure she is doing the right thing - but that of course is often the case for a young child in front of a TV camera. You'd just as likely have it here with a young child describing their sports day or how they were treated for a broken leg.

The martyrs' comment is likely to be how any young Syrian child will refer to the fighters of their particular political/military grouping. Remember that child has almost definitely only known war and the way adults around her talk about war, and maybe try to dress it up in more esoteric term. Just as again here a small child might describe that their 'Mum has gone to heaven and is an angel' because that's what adults have told him/her.

[Cunobelin]

Arguably

A known violent individual walks into a pub with a knife

Someone takes the knife away

You cannot “prove” that this act saved lives, nor has it prevented them going home and getting another knife

All that can be said is that a particular knife has been prevented from causing any injury

... or you could have left him with the knife until he did injure someone

But by your analogy we (Trump/May/Macaroon) have not yet even established that he had the knife; the inspectors had only recently arrived in the area and were some way off reporting.

Ian

This guy has been involved in a dozen stabbings over the last year, and the children and witnesses from the family pub down the road where he has just stabbed more people..... he is known

As for the inspectors - here is another analogy (or two)

Police have evidence that the guy has stabbed someone and has a house full of knives and illegal drugs..... But he and a dozen of his mates stand in the door way and refuse to let the Police in.

The Police then apologise turn round and ask them when it is convenient for them to come back, and please don't destroy and remove the evidence before they do.

Guy gets caught drunk driving and he is mates stop the Police from doing a breathalyser.... so again teh Police just step back and watch the evidence disappear

[Cunobelin]

Talking about "evidence" I see Labour are back to making falsifying it again

[Cunobelin]

there was a video of a young girl maybe 6 or 6? reporting her experiences after the attack, on the bbc news website today. now seems to have gone. One thing that raised my eyebrow at the end before she was cut off was she started to talk about the martyrs and the blood, which made be wonder whether she had been coached, thats how she sounded at the end, the last 2 seconds or so. so the Russians may have a point in that it not all as it seemed?

ah here it is

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-middle-east-43776015/syria-chemical-attack-family-seen-in-hospital-video-speak

what do you think? listen particularly at the end. "saw how they were bringing the martyrs. we breathed the smell of blood" rather precocious atleast?

Slightly OT, but these are not "normal" children. They have lived in an extreme and violent place where religious and political prejudice are rife. In the gap left by formal education, the religious fundamentalists often form an influence on teh community and hence the individuals within. Children are especially vulnerable.

I don't think she was "coached" for the interview, I honestly think that this is reality for many of these children as they are groomed to be the next generation of fighters in the war

As always be aware that this document is biased as the organisation has an agenda, but lends an insight Why young Syrians choose to fight