Welcome to cycle heaven: why we moved our family to the Netherlands

[reohn2]

https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2018/may/16/welcome-cycle-heaven-moved-family-netherlands-houten-utrecht

looks like The Village to me

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You'd prefer being choked on car fumes in London in bumper to bumper traffic and crap cycling infrastructure I take it

[pwa]

But would you like to live in the Alps with a bike as your form of transport?

No, but that is thinking about bikes as if they are just utility things, like a washing machine or a vacuum cleaner. Practical but not inspiring.

Practical doesn't mean uninspiring.I'd argue that the utility of the bicycle and the much,much better environment which has been developed around it's use is extremely inspiring TBH.

A great experience cycling, for me, involves hills and interesting countryside, not flat towns. Flat towns are what I try to escape. If walking heaven is about traffic free routes in towns, I'll have to rethink my love of hill walking

Man people live in flat towns in the UK where the NL model could be adopted and the inhabitants lives enriched because of it,those people may have to travel to hilly areas for their leisure cycling and walking.TBH I think it's a bit peevish to complain about NL's topography in relation to cycling when it really is cycling heaven compared to most countries and particularly the UK's crap attitude to he bike as a utility vehicle.

Practical cycling is something I do, but I enjoy the fact that my commutes involve quiet hilly lanes. I'd not trade that for flat traffic-free routes.

No one's asking you to,but to write off NL cycling's status due to a lack of your preferred topography is to miss the point of the OP IMO.

I'm not dismissing the good things about cycling in the Netherlands, I'm simply pointing out that I prefer what I have here where I live now. Heaven is supposed to be better. The Netherlands are not hilly enough to be Heaven.

[reohn2]

Heaven is supposed to be better. The Netherlands are not hilly enough to be Heaven.

It is better because the bike is transport and is thought of first in any planning of anything,it's considered first because of it's benefits and practicalities to society as a whole .

[[XAP]Bob]

Doesn't add up. Cycle Heaven for me is the Alps. Cycle Hell would be a flat place. The Netherlands has good cycling facilities / culture in the wrong landscape.

Depends on why you want cycling heaven.

You appear to want it as a leisure activity... Other people want it as a practical transport choice...

I suppose I don't actually want to live in a place without decent hills, cycling or not. It may have some of the attributes of a cycling heaven, but it lacks one. Heaven aint flat.

I’d rather live with decent infrastructure (and the associated driving mentality etc) than with hills...

[pwa]

Heaven is supposed to be better. The Netherlands are not hilly enough to be Heaven.

It is better because the bike is transport and is thought of first in any planning of anything,it's considered first because of it's benefits and practicalities to society as a whole .

It's not going to provide a better commute home than the one I do on dark evenings. Climbing a dark lane with just the odd fox and the owls for company, and my bike lights illuminating the road ahead. Cresting the first hill and seeing the distant lights of towns and villages, then plunging down into the darkness again to the slightly dodgy corner that always makes me think I could have positioned the bike better. Up and down, then the final 200 metre climb and into the lit streets of my village. I love that ride after work. My Heaven would be a bit like that.

[reohn2]

Heaven is supposed to be better. The Netherlands are not hilly enough to be Heaven.

It is better because the bike is transport and is thought of first in any planning of anything,it's considered first because of it's benefits and practicalities to society as a whole .

It's not going to provide a better commute home than the one I do on dark evenings. Climbing a dark lane with just the odd fox and the owls for company, and my bike lights illuminating the road ahead. Cresting the first hill and seeing the distant lights of towns and villages, then plunging down into the darkness again to the slightly dodgy corner that always makes me think I could have positioned the bike better. Up and down, then the final 200 metre climb and into the lit streets of my village. I love that ride after work. My Heaven would be a bit like that.

Do you think those feelings are not possible for a Dutch commuter?

[Tangled Metal]

Personally a few hills plus cycling for transport is heaven. Why can't the UK have cycling at the centre of transport design / planning? ......

Because it's a backward country with outraged attitudes and a very unhealthy class system that seems to think your a nobody if you ride a bike,ride a recumbent and your really of you rocker

OH dear! I'm an outgroup within an outgroup. Better write me off now.

There's a fair few of our higher ups cycle or used to cycle. How many photographs of Cameron, Boris, Corbyn, etc on bikes have been seen in papers and on TV? The truth is it's not about class system IMHO but more about lack of joined up thinking due to short term political expediency. I mean no political party will actively campaign for healthy Town planning during any election.

I suspect that if a strong, evidence based argument for a transport and town planning rethink you might find some areas of the country would consider it a good idea (probably nice middle class / well to do areas mind). Even then they wouldn't vote for a party offering it. There's more important things to vote for, often tribal reasons too.

Up here there's really two types of cycle commuter. The middle class who cycle because it's their hobby or they're saving the planet. The second are those who cycle because they don't drive (can't afford to run a car) but they can't afford / don't have a viable public transport option. So they get a cheap bike (stolen bike bought off a guy in pub or Halfords Carrera / voodoo / bso full suspension mtb) and use that. The former cares enough to consider voting for local issues the latter I doubt gives a sh1t about environmental issues. I work with enough of the second type and get the pi$$ taken out of me by them for being keen on cycling / supportive of Dutch style cycling provisions.

Put bluntly it's not the higher ups not giving us the choice of good cycling provisions / a new way. It's the majority of our nation not being remotely interested in it thus making it a vote loser to offer a change to the Dutch system. It's the attitude of the masses you need to see change in not the elite.

[pwa]

It is better because the bike is transport and is thought of first in any planning of anything,it's considered first because of it's benefits and practicalities to society as a whole .

It's not going to provide a better commute home than the one I do on dark evenings. Climbing a dark lane with just the odd fox and the owls for company, and my bike lights illuminating the road ahead. Cresting the first hill and seeing the distant lights of towns and villages, then plunging down into the darkness again to the slightly dodgy corner that always makes me think I could have positioned the bike better. Up and down, then the final 200 metre climb and into the lit streets of my village. I love that ride after work. My Heaven would be a bit like that.

Do you think those feelings are not possible for a Dutch commuter?

Maybe in a hilly corner of the country, but not generally. I don't like flat places much, no matter how safe they are.

[reohn2]

Maybe in a hilly corner of the country, but not generally. I don't like flat places much, no matter how safe they are.

We'll agree to differ then

[reohn2]

OH dear! I'm an outgroup within an outgroup. Better write me off now.

No,your outside an out group but inside an outer group

There's a fair few of our higher ups cycle or used to cycle. How many photographs of Cameron, Boris, Corbyn, etc on bikes have been seen in papers and on TV? The truth is it's not about class system IMHO but more about lack of joined up thinking due to short term political expediency. I mean no political party will actively campaign for healthy Town planning during any election

.
IMO there's a definite class system at work both on the road and in the politrickal hierarchy .

I suspect that if a strong, evidence based argument for a transport and town planning rethink you might find some areas of the country would consider it a good idea (probably nice middle class / well to do areas mind). Even then they wouldn't vote for a party offering it. There's more important things to vote for, often tribal reasons too.

The tribal lines are drawn,even on this forum there are those who think the Tories are doing a good job .
As for town planning,it needs to wakeup to a modern perspective of where towns need to be going from a transport POV,and it's not car related in any way shape or form.

Up here there's really two types of cycle commuter. The middle class who cycle because it's their hobby or they're saving the planet.

Who told you that?

The second are those who cycle because they don't drive (can't afford to run a car) but they can't afford / don't have a viable public transport option

.
Whilst I agree about the public transport who told you they couldn't afford another form of transport?

So they get a cheap bike (stolen bike bought off a guy in pub or Halfords Carrera / voodoo / bso full suspension mtb) and use that.

Who told you that,where's your proof?

The former cares enough to consider voting for local issues the latter I doubt gives a sh1t about environmental issues. I work with enough of the second type and get the pi$$ taken out of me by them for being keen on cycling / supportive of Dutch style cycling provisions.

Care to explain?

Put bluntly it's not the higher ups not giving us the choice of good cycling provisions / a new way. It's the majority of our nation not being remotely interested in it thus making it a vote loser to offer a change to the Dutch system. It's the attitude of the masses you need to see change in not the elite.

It may have escaped your attention but it's the elite(rich)who are running the show and wish to ensure the status quo remains.
There is some change but tis very slow

[[XAP]Bob]

Maybe in a hilly corner of the country, but not generally. I don't like flat places much, no matter how safe they are.

So you'd take a 70mph road over a mountain with idiots driving it all day against a dedicated cycle facility round the base?

More important for many people of course is not the detail of the journey, but the destination. And getting from A to B I'd far rather live without hills than without facilities.

[Mike Sales]

I used to live in a hilly place, and like some above I enjoyed it greatly. I also took the view that flat places were too boring to make good cycling.
Now I have some physical problems and I am very glad to live in a flat place. I would be more limited in my leisure and utility cycling if I lived somewhere with corrugations. I am not alone. Many people are limited by age or disability, or even inclination. Cycling uphill is hard work, not relished by all unfortunately.
In my youth many more people used to cycle here in the Fens but now some other factor has dissuaded cycling.
I wish I could still enjoy Wales on the bike.

[reohn2]

Maybe in a hilly corner of the country, but not generally. I don't like flat places much, no matter how safe they are.

So you'd take a 70mph road over a mountain with idiots driving it all day against a dedicated cycle facility round the base?

More important for many people of course is not the detail of the journey, but the destination. And getting from A to B I'd far rather live without hills than without facilities.

FIFY

[stu1102]

Interestingly a report released by University of Westminster reported in the Times 17-5-18 indicates that British Cyclists were 4 times more likely to be killed as those in the Netherlands, wonder why.

[Mike Sales]

I live in a place where cycling is as easy as the Netherlands. I wish our council was as enlightened as the Dutch authorities. The Boston Bypass Independents won 25 out of 32 council seats in 2007.
This was in spite of the council being unable to build a bypass, and ignored a report on traffic in the town which found that a bypass would remove little traffic from the town because there is not much through traffic.
The party made a mess of running the council.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boston_Bypass_Independents
Cycling facilities in Boston are as woeful as the rest of Britain.