Ken Livingstone has left the labour party

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mercalia
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Ken Livingstone has left the labour party

Postby mercalia » 21 May 2018, 7:31pm

well seems he has decided to leave rather than be pushed - a sad day I think. What I heard of his views didnt seem to be antisemitic, and he was suspended not for being antisemitic but for bringing the party into disrepute, a rather dangerous catchall for getting rid of people you dont like and who dont agree with you. He did seem to relish being a bad boy, that was his undoing? maybe he was getting a bit senile and missed being the center of interest, I wonder what will happen now will he go quietly?

brynpoeth
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Re: Ken Livingstone has left the labour party

Postby brynpoeth » 21 May 2018, 7:37pm

Who is Ken Livingstone?
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mercalia
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Re: Ken Livingstone has left the labour party

Postby mercalia » 21 May 2018, 7:47pm

brynpoeth wrote:Who is Ken Livingstone?


twice mayor of London( beating the labour candidate ) and long standing mp. introduced the congestion charge and oyster cards in London. Vehement critic of tony Blair. Achieved the 2012 summer olympics bid and ushering in a major redevelopment of the city's East End,

Characterised as "the only truly successful left-wing British politician of modern times" until Corbyn

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ken_Livingstone
Last edited by mercalia on 21 May 2018, 7:55pm, edited 1 time in total.

pwa
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Re: Ken Livingstone has left the labour party

Postby pwa » 21 May 2018, 7:53pm

He does offer an apology for offence caused, which is something, but he's let this go on too long. I can't believe that he is antisemitic, coming from a political tradition diametrically opposed to Nazism, racism and antisemitism. But he has allowed a blurring to occur around opposition to the Israeli government in its relations with the Palestinians, and genuine anti-Jew attitudes. He has not made the distinction clear enough, often enough.

I have no idea whether or not Hitler expressed positive feelings about a homeland for the Jews. I can see why he might, as a way of removing them from Europe, but did he actually voice that opinion? But Ken should have known he was walking on thin ice bringing it up, and he should have been hyper careful about making clear that he was not expressing antisemitic views. He was careless. And Labour will be better off without his "help" in the future.

I've always seen Ken as a London oddity, someone who would not have found such an appreciative audience anywhere outside the capital.

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Cunobelin
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Re: Ken Livingstone has left the labour party

Postby Cunobelin » 21 May 2018, 8:06pm

mercalia wrote:
brynpoeth wrote:Who is Ken Livingstone?


twice mayor of London( beating the labour candidate ) and long standing mp. introduced the congestion charge and oyster cards in London. Vehement critic of tony Blair. Achieved the 2012 summer olympics bid and ushering in a major redevelopment of the city's East End,

Characterised as "the only truly successful left-wing British politician of modern times" until Corbyn

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ken_Livingstone



Also pioneered the most successful public transport campaign on record until it was quashed by the Government

Low fares were the key, with a 32% reduction, millions of extra bus and tube journeys, and a reduction of 10% in car use

brynpoeth
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Re: Ken Livingstone has left the labour party

Postby brynpoeth » 21 May 2018, 8:15pm

Cunobelin wrote:
mercalia wrote:
brynpoeth wrote:Who is Ken Livingstone?


twice mayor of London( beating the labour candidate ) and long standing mp. introduced the congestion charge and oyster cards in London. Vehement critic of tony Blair. Achieved the 2012 summer olympics bid and ushering in a major redevelopment of the city's East End,

Characterised as "the only truly successful left-wing British politician of modern times" until Corbyn

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ken_Livingstone



Also pioneered the most successful public transport campaign on record until it was quashed by the Government

Low fares were the key, with a 32% reduction, millions of extra bus and tube journeys, and a reduction of 10% in car use

It worked so he had to go

Similar thing happening in Berlin now, a new law promoting walking and cycling is planned but I just read it will have a section for motors too
The A100 Motorway is still being built right through the city

One Sunday a year the cyclists take over and may even ride on the motorway. 364 days nothing changes
Entertainer, kidult, curmudgeon
Cycling-of course, but it is far better on a Gillott
We love safety cameras, we love life "597"

mercalia
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Re: Ken Livingstone has left the labour party

Postby mercalia » 21 May 2018, 8:29pm

I think Ken Livingstone forgot ( or knew but didnt care anymore ) that what's important in politics is not whats true but how things appear - has been the undoing of many? why we hate politicians so much as two faced self serving career seekers? It would be interesting if he got a column on the Standard, maybe Osborne will give him a spot thinking its a way to undermine Labour? :wink: though he might just as well attack the tories as he is a loose cannon? :lol: Any way which would you prefer Ken Livingstone or Boris the idiot who keeps on putting his foot in his gob?

Tangled Metal
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Re: Ken Livingstone has left the labour party

Postby Tangled Metal » 21 May 2018, 10:23pm

Labour's Boris? By that I mean he regularly puts his foot in his mouth, saying the wrong things and has regularly appeared on HIGNFY.

Tbh one similarity they both have is that I have been hoping that they both disappear forever from politics, public office and they public visibility completely disappears.

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Cunobelin
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Re: Ken Livingstone has left the labour party

Postby Cunobelin » 22 May 2018, 6:45am

brynpoeth wrote:
Cunobelin wrote:
mercalia wrote:
twice mayor of London( beating the labour candidate ) and long standing mp. introduced the congestion charge and oyster cards in London. Vehement critic of tony Blair. Achieved the 2012 summer olympics bid and ushering in a major redevelopment of the city's East End,

Characterised as "the only truly successful left-wing British politician of modern times" until Corbyn

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ken_Livingstone



Also pioneered the most successful public transport campaign on record until it was quashed by the Government

Low fares were the key, with a 32% reduction, millions of extra bus and tube journeys, and a reduction of 10% in car use

It worked so he had to go

Similar thing happening in Berlin now, a new law promoting walking and cycling is planned but I just read it will have a section for motors too
The A100 Motorway is still being built right through the city

One Sunday a year the cyclists take over and may even ride on the motorway. 364 days nothing changes



It was an interesting concept

It was suggested that if as appeared to be the case, the Council was subsidising the car users, and therefore subsidising public transport was equally fare and legitimate.

However as it became a success, other cities were seriously looking to introduce something similar

It was allegedly under pressure from those in the fuel, motoring and motor manufacturers who felt threatened that it was challenged

The first step was to reclaim £119 million from the GLCs budget to make it more difficult

The final nail in the coffin though goes back to the original concept

The claim was that the GLC was failing to act in a financially responsible manner:

"A local authority owes a fiduciary duty to the ratepayers from whom it obtains moneys needed to carry out its statutory functions, and this includes a duty not to expend those moneys thriftlessly but to deploy the full financial resources available to it to the best advantage".


The Courts decided that the cuts and the use of rates to subsidise was illegal.

So it was scrapped and ironically the (technically) equally illegal subsidy of motorists returned

firedfromthecircus
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Re: Ken Livingstone has left the labour party

Postby firedfromthecircus » 22 May 2018, 8:14am

pwa wrote: But he has allowed a blurring to occur around opposition to the Israeli government in its relations with the Palestinians, and genuine anti-Jew attitudes. He has not made the distinction clear enough, often enough.


Why is it that he should make that distinction clearly and often? Because it's Israel?
You can be critical of USA domestic and foreign policy without it being suggested you are anti-Christian or anti-Western, so why not critical of Israeli domestic and foreign policy without being accused of anti-Semitism?
It seems to me that there is far too much conflation between perfectly valid criticism of the behaviour of the State of Israel and anti-Semitism, and often for political points scoring or as a stick to beat those who raise concerns. The sooner it stops the better for all concerned.

Tangled Metal
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Re: Ken Livingstone has left the labour party

Postby Tangled Metal » 22 May 2018, 8:53am

Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't he get in trouble for comments about Hitler, Jews and Hitler's policy of exportation of Jews to what is now Israel? Namely events before the state of Israel existed.

It seems to be that Ken Livingstone has had a career of dropping in and out of labour party. Whether through suspension, expulsion or personal decision to leave. Does anyone think this is just a temporary respite for Corbyn and sooner or later he'll be back?

By resigning it could be said he has allowed Corbyn to duck the issues relating to his difficult case. Is it a favour to Corbyn that he's doing? Am I becoming a conspiracy theorist? Has there been some behind the scenes negotiations? Ken slips away quietly for a couple of years then whichever socialist is leading the Labour party by then will give him a good job to do with driving the socialist agenda through?

pliptrot
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Re: Ken Livingstone has left the labour party

Postby pliptrot » 22 May 2018, 8:55am

brynpoeth wrote:Similar thing happening in Berlin now, a new law promoting walking and cycling is planned but I just read it will have a section for motors too
The A100 Motorway is still being built right through the city

One Sunday a year the cyclists take over and may even ride on the motorway. 364 days nothing changes


I cycle across Berlin daily to and from work (well, I am away 6 months a year) and I can say that -apart from it being the broken glass capital of the world- it is wonderful, and far better than anywhere else I have ridden (though I am bound to point out that I previously lived in Singapore, London (90s) and Houston so the bar is not very high). Certainly the traffic is very light compared to anywhere else and we cyclists get respect. The Star rides are always fun and we get the Velothon, too, so that is 2 days a year. Imagine closing the roads in central London for a sportive!! The fact that motorists are so patient here astonishes me when cyclists -perhaps I am the only exception- routinely ignore all regulations, red lights and other road users. Public transport is abundant and cheap. The city is not perfect, and is becoming expensive and so driving out decent folk and replacing them with lawyers, dentists and marketing managers, but I wouldn't live anywhere else (until I retire to Hampshire, that is). If you think about Germany, the tax rates are not so much different to the UK, (45% top rate), and yet Government provision of everything is better than at home (Freudian slip - I've been here 8 years,so...). Perhaps because we don't pay for nuclear submarines, royal weddings and so on. The banks here are even more mendacious than in the UK, so it ain't that.......but I digress

reohn2
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Re: Ken Livingstone has left the labour party

Postby reohn2 » 22 May 2018, 8:57am

firedfromthecircus wrote:..........It seems to me that there is far too much conflation between perfectly valid criticism of the behaviour of the State of Israel and anti-Semitism, and often for political points scoring or as a stick to beat those who raise concerns. The sooner it stops the better for all concerned.

Spot on!
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reohn2
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Re: Ken Livingstone has left the labour party

Postby reohn2 » 22 May 2018, 9:00am

Tangled Metal wrote:..... Am I becoming a conspiracy theorist?.......

Yes
Livingstone is a free thinker and a Socialist,nuff said,.
Like many many people he's not right all the time and has been targeted by the right on comments he's made.The term I'd use is "single point attack" for politrickal gain.
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Tangled Metal
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Re: Ken Livingstone has left the labour party

Postby Tangled Metal » 22 May 2018, 9:19am

So you don't think there could be an element of Ken stepping down to help Corbyn by removing one of the causes of Corbyn's accusers saying he hasn't taken strong enough action on those accused of making anti-semitic comments. That he hasn't taken the lead in this matter. That he has been leader of a party that's taken over two years on Ken's case without any sign of a conclusion. By taking the case off the agenda Ken has partly helped Corbyn. Do you not think?

(I'm not giving odds on the answer to that question. Don't bet against a certainty!)