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Re: What might be the effects of the rapidly increasing motor vehicle fuel costs?

Posted: 9 Jun 2018, 10:23pm
by ThePinkOne
There's so many other things come into this.

How many commuters truly need to commute to do their job? Unfortunately, remote working is still not as prevalent as it could be- in my experience, insecure managers are the main barrier, aided and abetted by poor corporate IT depts. Since being made redundant and setting up my own business, I do a lot remotely (in my rates I incentivise clients to have me do stuff from home where possible), it is more productive and I really don't miss the commute.

But to do this in big companies, heck they would have to manage on output and that whole pointless "performance management" (ie how well your face fits) malaky would go, along with the petty power those in control of such systems wield......

Point being that it is not just about personal choices..... There's a lot of cultural stuff, some less evident. Then there's enabling infrastructure like broadband......

That's why I say it needs a 10-20 year planned/managed approach.

Ironically, modern technology offers the chance to go back to a more home-focused way of earning a living, as per before the industrial revolution got people into factories. There is an argument that a big investment into rural broadband would help hugely, as would a policy which reduced land prices and allowed people to cheaply build their own family home. Yes, some jobs would still need "attendance" but many would not.

Having more people home during they day could do wonders for local services too.....

TPO

Re: What might be the effects of the rapidly increasing motor vehicle fuel costs?

Posted: 10 Jun 2018, 6:19am
by thirdcrank
It's almost twenty years ago since Two Jags famously declared he would reduce traffic levels and came nowhere near it. No surprise because it's politically impossible to achieve. An externally caused rapid increase in motor vehicle fuel costs would not be influenced by all this special pleading (edit to include:) and wishful thinking.

There's already some sort of target to convert to electric motors within twenty years, but at the same time, there seem to be doubts about whether enough generation capacity can be built to "keep the lights on" as older power stations are decommissioned.

Re: What might be the effects of the rapidly increasing motor vehicle fuel costs?

Posted: 10 Jun 2018, 8:39am
by pwa
thirdcrank wrote:It's almost twenty years ago since Two Jags famously declared he would reduce traffic levels and came nowhere near it. No surprise because it's politically impossible to achieve. An externally caused rapid increase in motor vehicle fuel costs would not be influenced by all this special pleading.

There's already some sort of target to convert to electric motors within twenty years, but at the same time, there seem to be doubts about whether enough generation capacity can be built to "keep the lights on" as older power stations are decommissioned.


There are also doubts about how much air quality in big conurbations would improve if people simply swapped their diesel cars for electric. Electric cars still pollute from their brakes and tyres. Put enough of them on a busy road and you will still have dirty air with real health concerns.

Re: What might be the effects of the rapidly increasing motor vehicle fuel costs?

Posted: 10 Jun 2018, 8:46am
by brynpoeth
Many people who work from home choose to go to the office a couple of times a week for contact with real people :wink:

The law of unintended consequences applies, if one may work from home it might make sense to move further away to live more cheaply, then one might just go in once a week but still travel more than when one lived nearby and travelled every day

Re: What might be the effects of the rapidly increasing motor vehicle fuel costs?

Posted: 10 Jun 2018, 11:35am
by Mick F
pwa wrote:Electric cars still pollute from their brakes and tyres.
Tyres yes, but not much for the brakes.
Regen braking counts for a lot.

Now we have a hybrid, I'm constantly amazed how clean the front wheels remain. We've had many cars with alloys and they're a pain the keep clean at the front due to brake grime. With our Yaris Hybrid, the front wheels stay as clean as the rears.

Re: What might be the effects of the rapidly increasing motor vehicle fuel costs?

Posted: 10 Jun 2018, 11:51am
by thirdcrank
I thought that the biggy was that the generation of electricity causes the pollution, even if it's remote from the point of use. This current discussion isn't about pollution, which might suddenly drop off the agenda anyway in the event of a real fuel shortage.

Re: What might be the effects of the rapidly increasing motor vehicle fuel costs?

Posted: 10 Jun 2018, 11:52am
by horizon
thirdcrank wrote:It's almost twenty years ago since Two Jags famously declared he would reduce traffic levels and came nowhere near it. No surprise because it's politically impossible to achieve. An externally caused rapid increase in motor vehicle fuel costs would not be influenced by all this special pleading.



Traffic growth is self limiting due to (a) rising fuel costs as you mention (b) congestion (yes, that reduces traffic as well as creating it) and (c) economic cycles.

The (d) factor is of course humans beings coming to their senses and realising that sitting in a car for half your life isn't much of a life. The cruel deception is that roadbuilding reduces congestion (it doesn't, it increases it).

Re: What might be the effects of the rapidly increasing motor vehicle fuel costs?

Posted: 10 Jun 2018, 11:56am
by thirdcrank
I've belatedly amended my earlier post to read "special pleading and wishful thinking."

There's no mechanism in our political system to deal with this until the crisis is upon us, not least because a lot of people belive it will never happen.

Re: What might be the effects of the rapidly increasing motor vehicle fuel costs?

Posted: 10 Jun 2018, 12:06pm
by reohn2
thirdcrank wrote:I thought that the biggy was that the generation of electricity causes the pollution, even if it's remote from the point of use. This current discussion isn't about pollution, which might suddenly drop off the agenda anyway in the event of a real fuel shortage.

TBH I think part if not all of the answer to generation of electricity is solar power at a very local level,as the old song goes "Up on the roof" :wink:

Re: What might be the effects of the rapidly increasing motor vehicle fuel costs?

Posted: 10 Jun 2018, 12:13pm
by reohn2
horizon wrote:..........The (d) factor is of course humans beings coming to their senses and realising that sitting in a car for half your life isn't much of a life. The cruel deception is that roadbuilding reduces congestion (it doesn't, it increases it).


That is a very wise and truthful statement.
What it now needs is the rest of society to realise it's wisdom and truth.

Re: What might be the effects of the rapidly increasing motor vehicle fuel costs?

Posted: 10 Jun 2018, 5:57pm
by [XAP]Bob
reohn2 wrote:
thirdcrank wrote:I thought that the biggy was that the generation of electricity causes the pollution, even if it's remote from the point of use. This current discussion isn't about pollution, which might suddenly drop off the agenda anyway in the event of a real fuel shortage.

TBH I think part if not all of the answer to generation of electricity is solar power at a very local level,as the old song goes "Up on the roof" :wink:


Also that the *extremely* large engines at a power station achieve thermal efficiency well beyond a small petrol engine - and there are enough emissions at one place for it to be sensible to ‘scrub’ the exhaust...

Add nuclear generation into the mix, as well as various renewables.

If we all had e cars and grid connectivity was universal then think how easy it could be to deal with the inconsistent flow of energy from wind farms...

Re: What might be the effects of the rapidly increasing motor vehicle fuel costs?

Posted: 13 Jun 2018, 7:23am
by thirdcrank
Petrol price levels cannot be justified says RAC
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-44453931

Re: What might be the effects of the rapidly increasing motor vehicle fuel costs?

Posted: 13 Jun 2018, 8:13am
by mjr
thirdcrank wrote:Petrol price levels cannot be justified says RAC
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-44453931

Comparing https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/inflatio ... /k2xh/mm22 with https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/inflatio ... /kj5u/mm23 doesn't suggest that petrol prices are being inflated much by more than oil price increases. The RAC seems to be jumping to conclusions from provisional data or being a good motorists' lobbying organisation spinning things.