What might be the effects of the rapidly increasing motor vehicle fuel costs?

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thirdcrank
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Re: What might be the effects of the rapidly increasing motor vehicle fuel costs?

Postby thirdcrank » 7 Jun 2018, 11:08am

This is a case where the thread title should be kept to the forefront.

The current rises are pretty much beyond the control or influence of the UK government, being largely caused by things like a supply/price war between OPEC (not in itself a united organisation) and American shale producers; increasing fuel consumption in developing countries; fuel being internationally priced in $$$; "futures" markets being troubled by things like Trump scrapping the Iran deal; and the simple fact that oil is a finite resource, even though the date of running out has so frequently been wrongly predicted it's taken as a cry of "Wolf!"

The fuel price escalator was tried and quickly scrapped - for political reasons. I do know that a large element of fuel price "at the pump" is made up of taxation in various forms, but there seems little scope for this to be reduced.

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horizon
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Re: What might be the effects of the rapidly increasing motor vehicle fuel costs?

Postby horizon » 7 Jun 2018, 11:13am

Quite. Rural workers are in that sense as "bad" as urban commuters and out-of-town shoppers. The car/van/truck and oil has allowed them to work anywhere. When oil prices rise, their way of life and work is threatened and they naturally scream "unfair". What I was referring to were people who lived and worked in the same village. Which of course they don't. That might change however with more community initiatives, village workspaces, locally protected housing and the use of broadband.
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horizon
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Re: What might be the effects of the rapidly increasing motor vehicle fuel costs?

Postby horizon » 7 Jun 2018, 11:17am

thirdcrank wrote:
The fuel price escalator was tried and quickly scrapped - for political reasons. I do know that a large element of fuel price "at the pump" is made up of taxation in various forms, but there seems little scope for this to be reduced.


Had the fuel price escalator actually been operative, it could gave been used to iron out international oil price changes. Instead of which it has locked people into a fantasy world of longer commutes and a reliance on cheap fuel which then leaves them vulnerable to real price changes. Petrol prices seem to stay the same for long enough for people to change their lifestyles but not long enough to see them through.
I have two doctors, my left leg and my right leg. (G. M. Trevelyan)
PS I always wondered why the YHA HQ was called Trevelyan House. :)

reohn2
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Re: What might be the effects of the rapidly increasing motor vehicle fuel costs?

Postby reohn2 » 7 Jun 2018, 11:26am

thirdcrank wrote:This is a case where the thread title should be kept to the forefront.

The current rises are pretty much beyond the control or influence of the UK government, being largely caused by things like a supply/price war between OPEC (not in itself a united organisation) and American shale producers; increasing fuel consumption in developing countries; fuel being internationally priced in $$$; "futures" markets being troubled by things like Trump scrapping the Iran deal; and the simple fact that oil is a finite resource, even though the date of running out has so frequently been wrongly predicted it's taken as a cry of "Wolf!"

The fuel price escalator was tried and quickly scrapped - for political reasons. I do know that a large element of fuel price "at the pump" is made up of taxation in various forms, but there seems little scope for this to be reduced.


But if car used was restricted,then that tax income would fall anyway.The message seems clear that one way or another the government coffers will suffer and either we're all d :shock: med or transport in the UK needs a radical rethink.
Going off the recent rail debacle the UK is well behind that curve due to it's universal reliance on the private motor having a stranglehold one way or the other :?
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Re: What might be the effects of the rapidly increasing motor vehicle fuel costs?

Postby pwa » 7 Jun 2018, 11:26am

horizon wrote:Quite. Rural workers are in that sense as "bad" as urban commuters and out-of-town shoppers. The car/van/truck and oil has allowed them to work anywhere. When oil prices rise, their way of life and work is threatened and they naturally scream "unfair". What I was referring to were people who lived and worked in the same village. Which of course they don't. That might change however with more community initiatives, village workspaces, locally protected housing and the use of broadband.


I know people who live and work in our village, and they still go places in the car. To the shops (and the local shop will never replace the supermarket) or the comprehensive school to pick the kids up to take them to the dentists, or whatever. Indeed, on the days that my wife drives to work she can visit the supermarket on the way home and kill two birds with one stone. The price of fuel going up must encourage that combining of journeys, which is a good habit to get into.

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Mick F
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Re: What might be the effects of the rapidly increasing motor vehicle fuel costs?

Postby Mick F » 7 Jun 2018, 11:42am

pete75 wrote:
horizon wrote:
thirdcrank wrote:It must hit people who live and work in rural areas hard.


Not if they live and work in a rural area - most don't: they live in the rural area and work in the town.


Eh? A lot of people who live and work in rural areas travel some distance to work. Many agricultural workers these days are self employed and work on frams all over the place. There are also many food processing factories in rural areas and these draw their workforce from a wide area.

Yep.
Most workers round here work locally. Some commute to the Big City, but most work locally or as local as you can get in a rural environment. I understand that there's car sharing going on.

No way on God's Earth that people here would cycle to Morrisons/Tesco/etc for their shopping. :lol: :lol:
Best thing would be to do the shopping online and get them to deliver to your door, but not everyone likes that, not even me.
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pete75
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Re: What might be the effects of the rapidly increasing motor vehicle fuel costs?

Postby pete75 » 7 Jun 2018, 1:11pm

horizon wrote:
thirdcrank wrote:
The fuel price escalator was tried and quickly scrapped - for political reasons. I do know that a large element of fuel price "at the pump" is made up of taxation in various forms, but there seems little scope for this to be reduced.


Had the fuel price escalator actually been operative, it could gave been used to iron out international oil price changes. Instead of which it has locked people into a fantasy world of longer commutes and a reliance on cheap fuel which then leaves them vulnerable to real price changes. Petrol prices seem to stay the same for long enough for people to change their lifestyles but not long enough to see them through.


Yes but we don't have cheap fuel and never have that I can remember. The price has always been made artificially high by heavy taxation. If the price of fuel is bearing too heavily on some folk maybe the tax needs to come down. It is, of course, a regressive tax bearing most heavily on people with lower incomes.

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Mick F
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Re: What might be the effects of the rapidly increasing motor vehicle fuel costs?

Postby Mick F » 7 Jun 2018, 1:34pm

I've asked this question before when we've been discussing the cost of petrol.

How does the cost compare to the average weekly wage through the years?

I remember my dad complaining about paying 5/6d a gallon. By the time my mum was driving - 1962? - I think I remember her paying 5/10d a gallon.

Let's say that petrol was 5/- a gallon in 1960.
That's four gallons for a quid.
Say £15 per week wages.
That's 60galls a week.

These days, 60galls = 273litres which would cost @ 120p per litre = £327.60

What is the average weekly wage now?
Mick F. Cornwall

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Re: What might be the effects of the rapidly increasing motor vehicle fuel costs?

Postby CliveyT » 7 Jun 2018, 1:47pm

Mick F wrote:I've asked this question before when we've been discussing the cost of petrol.

How does the cost compare to the average weekly wage through the years?

I remember my dad complaining about paying 5/6d a gallon. By the time my mum was driving - 1962? - I think I remember her paying 5/10d a gallon.

Let's say that petrol was 5/- a gallon in 1960.
That's four gallons for a quid.
Say £15 per week wages.
That's 60galls a week.

These days, 60galls = 273litres which would cost @ 120p per litre = £327.60

What is the average weekly wage now?


You also need to factor in that cars are more efficient now, and there are bypasses/ motorways etc (even if there's also more congestion). You'll get a fair bit further on your 273 litres today than you would have in 1960

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Re: What might be the effects of the rapidly increasing motor vehicle fuel costs?

Postby Vorpal » 7 Jun 2018, 2:09pm

CliveyT wrote:
Mick F wrote:I've asked this question before when we've been discussing the cost of petrol.

How does the cost compare to the average weekly wage through the years?

I remember my dad complaining about paying 5/6d a gallon. By the time my mum was driving - 1962? - I think I remember her paying 5/10d a gallon.

Let's say that petrol was 5/- a gallon in 1960.
That's four gallons for a quid.
Say £15 per week wages.
That's 60galls a week.

These days, 60galls = 273litres which would cost @ 120p per litre = £327.60

What is the average weekly wage now?


You also need to factor in that cars are more efficient now, and there are bypasses/ motorways etc (even if there's also more congestion). You'll get a fair bit further on your 273 litres today than you would have in 1960

Car themselves also cost much less, now, and provide better comfort, safety, and performance, as well as the noted economy.

Insurance is more expensive, so I'm not sure how it all falls out.
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horizon
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Re: What might be the effects of the rapidly increasing motor vehicle fuel costs?

Postby horizon » 7 Jun 2018, 2:21pm

CliveyT wrote:
You also need to factor in that cars are more efficient now, and there are bypasses/ motorways etc (even if there's also more congestion). You'll get a fair bit further on your 273 litres today than you would have in 1960


I cannot remember the source but this was refuted: cars have now taken up the fuel efficiency with increases in weight and size. If you suddenly come across a car from the 1950s, even like a Rover, you will be shocked at how small it is.
I have two doctors, my left leg and my right leg. (G. M. Trevelyan)
PS I always wondered why the YHA HQ was called Trevelyan House. :)

thirdcrank
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Re: What might be the effects of the rapidly increasing motor vehicle fuel costs?

Postby thirdcrank » 7 Jun 2018, 2:28pm

horizon wrote: ... I cannot remember the source but this was refuted:


I think this is one where it needs a proper source to see what they are saying in detail.

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Mick F
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Re: What might be the effects of the rapidly increasing motor vehicle fuel costs?

Postby Mick F » 7 Jun 2018, 2:32pm

My dad used to be very pleased with 35mpg on a long run. :lol:
No doubt he used a pint or two of oil too.
Black sit-up-and-beg Ford Pop.

Also, food costs were astronomical back in those days. Chicken was a luxury reserved for special occasions, and we survived on cheap cuts and stews and puddings. People talk of the rising costs of food these days, but they have forgotten what it was like post war.
Mick F. Cornwall

thirdcrank
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Re: What might be the effects of the rapidly increasing motor vehicle fuel costs?

Postby thirdcrank » 7 Jun 2018, 2:37pm

FWIW, in 1965 when I got my driving licence, around here regular petrol was 4/6d a gallon. 22.5p in the new money.

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Re: What might be the effects of the rapidly increasing motor vehicle fuel costs?

Postby pete75 » 7 Jun 2018, 2:48pm

Mick F wrote:My dad used to be very pleased with 35mpg on a long run. :lol:
No doubt he used a pint or two of oil too.
Black sit-up-and-beg Ford Pop.

Also, food costs were astronomical back in those days. Chicken was a luxury reserved for special occasions, and we survived on cheap cuts and stews and puddings. People talk of the rising costs of food these days, but they have forgotten what it was like post war.


Yep. We usually had roast beef on a Sunday and shop chicken was regarded as an expensive special treat. A lot of low cost food about then too - eggs from our own chickens - a meal when one stopped laying, Dad grew about 1/4 acre of tates which lasted well along with other veg, uncle kept pigs and supplied us with bacon , ham and sausages for free. Soft fruit and blackberries made into jam, glut of fruit in teh autumns lasted well if stored right. Rabbits, hares and teh odd pheasant appeared regularly on our table - all free. People who worked on farms often dropped off stuff as well.