Statesman or aged primary school kid?

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Psamathe
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Re: Statesman or aged primary school kid?

Postby Psamathe » 12 Jun 2018, 9:37am

Ben@Forest wrote:....
We know two things, until Trump American policy towards North Korea has never resulted in a meeting between a president and a sitting North Korean leader. And that previous presidents' approaches to NK have failed, including Obama. I don't know if Trump's approach is a flash in the pan or not but he's already made something happen.
.....

I think it is actually China rather than Trump that has brought North Korea to negotiations. I suspect that with China's actions we would be somewhat further ahead than we (Trump) actually is now. Likes of Trump and his Twitter insults and Bolton, etc. has put a solution back and that the initial meeting has gone ahead speaks more of China's influence than Trump's abilities.

Ian

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mjr
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Re: Statesman or aged primary school kid?

Postby mjr » 12 Jun 2018, 9:48am

So this isn't about Rees Mogg?
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Tangled Metal
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Re: Statesman or aged primary school kid?

Postby Tangled Metal » 12 Jun 2018, 9:49am

Actually those pundits who actually visit NK to talk to officials and kind of know a bit seem to be saying on media that the running came from NK not America. In fact I heard one guy on R4 this morning say Kim Jong Un has been moving towards improving relationships with America and the West for some time.

My gut feeling on this is nothing would have happened without the north Korean leader wanting it to happen. I feel he's as much in the driving seat as trump if not more so. He doesn't have a wider democratic world to appease in the slightest. He has even moved on the other great NK power base their military when he ousted key military leaders from their top posts. That's only possible if you've got complete control. He's replaced them with younger and more loyal people who share his view of opening up a bit more to the world and growing their economy.

There's more private business in NK but only if you pay your dues up the chain of power. It's still there including Mercedes dealerships, petrol stations, etc. It's not anywhere good yet but there's a change in the air in NK apparently that's nothing to do with trump. Predates him.

So if there's ever talk of Nobel prizes then the NK leader should get it for anything that happens with NK, before Donny even gets a look in.

Ben@Forest
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Re: Statesman or aged primary school kid?

Postby Ben@Forest » 12 Jun 2018, 2:02pm

Tangled Metal wrote:Actually those pundits who actually visit NK to talk to officials and kind of know a bit seem to be saying on media that the running came from NK not America.....

....So if there's ever talk of Nobel prizes then the NK leader should get it for anything that happens with NK, before Donny even gets a look in.



Excepting of course Kim has carried out over 80 missile tests, some of which flew over Japan and a number of nuclear tests. Ballistic missile tests have not been carried out by the USA on the Korean peninsula and the USA hasn't carried out any nuclear test anywhere since 1992. Of course they all have their reasons:

1. Trump wants a notable foreign policy success (and he campaigned on having fewer American troops abroad and there are lots of US troops in S Korea).
2. China would like a volatile neighbour to calm down a bit (and doesn't want wholesale emigration of poor N Koreans).
3. S Korea doesn't want Seoul to be blasted by N Korean artillery.
4. Japan doesn't want missiles flying over its territory.
5. North Korea is desperately poor and needs economic aid if its people aren't to be forever malnourished.

Tangled Metal
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Re: Statesman or aged primary school kid?

Postby Tangled Metal » 12 Jun 2018, 2:21pm

Sabre rattling like Trump did but is it only OK for trump to do?

brynpoeth
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Re: Statesman or aged primary school kid?

Postby brynpoeth » 13 Jun 2018, 5:35am

Trump and Kim got on well, plan to visit each other, +1

Could be the start of great relaxation internationally, who knows, not quite as epochal as 1989* mind

Anyone here know a bit more, anyone been to Korea at all? I visited an interesting exhibition about "Korea" in an ethnology museum a few months ago
Afterwards I realised it had been organised with help of the South Korean embassy, the North was not mentioned at all!

Could be some parallels to the Two Germanies, one day there may be just one Korea
Alternative facts welcome
......
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Psamathe
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Re: Statesman or aged primary school kid?

Postby Psamathe » 13 Jun 2018, 7:32am

I thought "we've been here before". From (questionable and fading) memory back in the 199? didn't a Democratic Government negotiate a nuclear/ballistic arms freeze or something and then soon after the Republican's won the next election and refused to support the agreement and never delivered what the US had agreed to so it all died.

Ian

AlaninWales
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Re: Statesman or aged primary school kid?

Postby AlaninWales » 13 Jun 2018, 11:12am

Another place that the media frenzy in criticising the individual completely misses the fact that he is right: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/jun/13/trump-nafta-g7-sunset-clause-trade-agreement

One wonders why the media is so united in decrying every move: Could it be simply the unthinking bay of the mob? Or perhaps there are vested interests in the moves towards international power bases?

Ben@Forest
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Re: Statesman or aged primary school kid?

Postby Ben@Forest » 13 Jun 2018, 1:14pm

AlaninWales wrote:Another place that the media frenzy in criticising the individual completely misses the fact that he is right: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/jun/13/trump-nafta-g7-sunset-clause-trade-agreement


And from the article:
There was much rejoicing this week over the photo of Trump being harangued by the other G7 leaders. But when I saw it, I thought: “The stitch-ups engineered by people like you produce people like him.” The machinations of remote elites in forums such as the G7, the IMF and the European Central Bank, and the opaque negotiation of unpopular treaties, destroy both trust and democratic agency, fuelling the frustration that demagogues exploit.


And hence Nigel Farage. Having three political parties which for 40 years essentially kept the EU line (despite opt-outs, rebates and staying out of the Euro) meant what was really a single issue pressure group becoming a political party, and which only didn't get some levers of power because of the FPTP system. Whatever one thinks of the Leave/Remain issue it was exacerbated by a body politic which never really questioned 'in' or the long-term consequences of in. No more or I'm sure it'll get moved to that other thread!