Ranulph Fiennes & Di's Sister.

[NATURAL ANKLING]

Hi,
Basically if you get someone to give you a character ref you get off scott free, not the first time character refs get you off, happens all the time.
(scott free = lesser sentence)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-l ... e-44673696

"Explorer Sir Ranulph Fiennes has called for two men to be jailed for their part in an attack on animal charity workers monitoring a hunt in Leicestershire.

One of the victims had his neck broken, but the attackers were given suspended sentences after Princess Diana's sister gave a character reference in court.
"

[pwa]

So in spite of being found guilty of GBH both men avoided custody and kept their jobs with the Belvoir Hunt? The Hunt is presumably not naming the four other men involved in the attack. This is the sort of thing you would expect of violent urban gangs, not grassing to the police. Strange and alien morality.

[reohn2]

So in spite of being found guilty of GBH both men avoided custody and kept their jobs with the Belvoir Hunt? The Hunt is presumably not naming the four other men involved in the attack.This is the sort of thing you would expect of violent urban gangs, not grassing to the police. Strange and alien morality.

Where do you think those gangsters got their ideas from?
Money doesn't just talk it screams abuse,maims and kills anyone who gets in it's way!

[NATURAL ANKLING]

Hi,
Can hardly believe that calling for the boys (four hooded men) sits well with the character ref, the ref writer is either a fool or has been fooled with their words.
Must be mates.

[Tangled Metal]

Is there any reason character references are allowed to carry any weight? I mean there must be other ways of determining anything that such references might provide in the way of relevant information. Not been in trouble with the law? Police have that information. Hard working? Police could check out information on length of service which is probably a good indicator or hunt employment records.

IMHO character references are really about trying to influence the judge and being human they can be influenced. Should it not be facts that have been collected by say probation in a probation report once found guilty?

Whether or not the judge has taken the toff's say so on the defendants and was lenient as a result or not it still looks like the judge has been convinced by a toff.

I hope the AG looks at it and appeals because surely ABH & GBH plus theft and destroying potential evidence is worth a custodial sentence.

As for the hunt, they have reputations and surely those two have damaged it. Surely sackable offence. The losing it job and the house that came with it should have happened as soon as the guilty verdict came in.

If your actions cause loss of job and house then that's down to your decisions and actions. It should form no part of sentencing IMHO.

I don't like a lot of hunt sab activity and side with hunts in a lot of the conflict stories that come out. But this has no defence. The guys pleaded guilty, great, but it was half hearted and should carry no weight because they did not tell the police who the four masked thugs were.

It's a terrible attack and should carry higher sentences and custodial ones too.

[thirdcrank]

Without trying very hard, I've been unable to find a detailed report of the judge's sentencing comments so it's not easy to know what was taken into account when the main information is in the comments of somebody from the other side and who seems to be courting publicity.

Character references are quite normal and I can't see this case having any effect on that. In any case of this type, the judge will have social inquiry reports prepared by what used to be called the Probation Service.

There's more news in a story about a baronet with a triple-barrelled surname and the daughter of an earl than more ordinary people. The clickbait has been swallowed, hook, line and ...... FWIW, the post of attorney general is a political appointment so the current AG is a tory MP.

[hondated]

Not surprised really as I learnt long ago that if kids from the upper echelons of society get a bit too boisterous its " high jinks " but if they come from a council estate its " vandalism ".

[PH]

Not surprised really as I learnt long ago that if kids from the upper echelons of society get a bit too boisterous its " high jinks " but if they come from a council estate its " vandalism ".

What makes you think they're from the upper echelons of society? Or do you think that of anything rural? The report describes the father as a terrierman, I'm not sure quite what that entails but it doesn't sound very landed gentry.
Thugs are thugs wherever they're from. I've seen plenty of examples where urban violence hasn't resulted in what I'd consider an appropriate punishment. The report doesn't make any comparisons, so I've no idea if this was an unusually lenient sentence. That some high profile figure brings it to the attention of the media is maybe a good thing, but it shows the same kind of bias as the reference they're complaining about, the media wouldn't be reporting if I made such a complaint.

[hondated]

Not surprised really as I learnt long ago that if kids from the upper echelons of society get a bit too boisterous its " high jinks " but if they come from a council estate its " vandalism ".

What makes you think they're from the upper echelons of society? Or do you think that of anything rural? The report describes the father as a terrierman, I'm not sure quite what that entails but it doesn't sound very landed gentry.
Thugs are thugs wherever they're from. I've seen plenty of examples where urban violence hasn't resulted in what I'd consider an appropriate punishment. The report doesn't make any comparisons, so I've no idea if this was an unusually lenient sentence. That some high profile figure brings it to the attention of the media is maybe a good thing, but it shows the same kind of bias as the reference they're complaining about, the media wouldn't be reporting if I made such a complaint.

Didn't know what a terrierman was until I Googled it. Even if they are not from the upper echelons and taking in consideration there are a small minority of " ordinary " people who support this awful so called sport it really is something dominated by those with money.
At least in this instance someone got prosecuted as there have been instance where that has not been the case. One law for the rich....
Mmm got me now wondering whether there could be a Masonic connection.

[661-Pete]

I wouldn't attribute 'class' as a factor here. As I see it, yobbish behaviour can exist right across the 'class' spectrum - and I've seen examples.

What ought - what really ought - to transcend all considerations of class, is a basic sense of common decency and a feeling of revulsion against all aspects of needless cruelty to animals. That's all.

I'm mindful of the fact that when the Hunting Act 2004 came into force, it also prohibited activities such as hare coursing, which is traditionally perceived as a working-class pursuit.

To what extent the law is currently being flouted - especially by those keeping packs of fox-hounds - I really don't know. My all-too-infrequent cycling perambulations don't really take me into 'foxhunting' country - at any rate not at the time of the year when it takes place. If supposedly legal 'drag hunts' transform themselves into illegal live fox-hunts once the dogs pick up the scent of a fox during the drag - well that just illustrates the perversity of the whole business. I'm not surprised that anti-blood-sports campaigners still have their work cut out...

[Tangled Metal]

The terrierman is basically as country working class as you can get. Think tugging forelock serf of yesteryear. The fact that a working class man has behaved as a thug or a yob shouldn't be a surprise to you. If he'd been a city thug or working class person you'd not be talking about toffs getting away with it.

The intervention of a toff who's an official of the hunt is just a a case of aristocracy wanting to keep a good worker.

One more thing to ask about his job with the hunt. What use is a terrierman for a drag hunt? Does the person leading the drag scent often go to ground needing terriers to be forced out. Or is it for flushing foxes to cross the hounds path so they could take advantage of the legal loophole so big it makes the law totally unenforceable?

I'm not anti hunting only anti cruel forms of hunt. But hunting in a way that results in a hound killing the quarry if cruel with few exceptions. I think there's only ratting that's a quick dispatch of the vermin. Rats die very easily.

I do not believe in an outright ban on hunting with hounds. IMHO two hounds with a single, professional huntsman or huntswoman chasing down a fox to dispatch with a gun is possibly the best way of controlling the fox.

At the end of the day two guys have assaulted the charity monitors with 4 others. The two guilty men pleaded guilty but did not help the investigation into the identities of the remaining 4 men. Whether you support hunts or those against hunts you have two criminals caught red handed. They pleaded guilty to try and get a reduced sentence but would not help the police identify the remaining members of their gang of thugs. IMHO any sentence reduction for the plea should be conditional on the identification and prosecution of the others.

The fact they'd lose the hunt job as a terrierman is not even a consideration IMHO. It is not a job that a prison sentence would result in a ban on the job. The guy could look for such a job once out of prison. If he's that good the hunt could save his job.

Besides a city thug getting a guilty verdict for similar crimes, what's the chance they'll get a custodial sentence. Is this really a low sentence? What is the procedure for prosecution to appeal a lenient sentence? Is there a procedure? I think there is but what is it?

[pwa]

TM makes a good point. If drunken yobs attack an innocent bystander outside a pub and he gets roughed up a bit, chances are nobody will get locked away. Which is a pity. The sentencing here seems to be on a par with that.

[Tangled Metal]

If they rough the guy up, break his neck in three places then throw him down an embankment I am not sure they'd walk free with just a suspended sentence somehow.

[pwa]

If they rough the guy up, break his neck in three places then throw him down an embankment I am not sure they'd walk free with just a suspended sentence somehow.

But if the more significant injuries, those to the neck, are explainable as unintended when all that was meant was that the victim should suffer the indignity of a harmless tumble.... If it was accepted that the neck injury was unintended and not easily foreseen, you can see how it could be seen in as a brawl. That's not any sort of excuse in my book, but I think courts fall for it.

[GasPipeWarrior]

If they rough the guy up, break his neck in three places then throw him down an embankment I am not sure they'd walk free with just a suspended sentence somehow.

But if the more significant injuries, those to the neck, are explainable as unintended when all that was meant was that the victim should suffer the indignity of a harmless tumble.... If it was accepted that the neck injury was unintended and not easily foreseen, you can see how it could be seen in as a brawl. That's not any sort of excuse in my book, but I think courts fall for it.

"Two or three approached me and basically kicked my walking pole out of my hand. As I bent down to pick it up I got punched in the chest, punched in the face, and one of them grabbed me and pushed me straight backwards off this 14ft drop.

"One of the masked thugs came down to me and started stamping on my arm and my shoulder and I think he was trying to see if I had got a camera."

A harmless tumble indeed.

Though I haven't followed the case, and like many here only became aware following Fiennes' intervention, I am wondering how the charges against the Grants were only ABH and GBH, and not of attempted murder given their actions on the day.

The Grants refusal to identify the four masked assailants that they summoned is one of the most rotten aspects of this case. Behaviour like this is appalling whether it's amongst an urban gang or a rural gang, and as naive as I certainly am on the workings of the law I would expect such an attitude to be rewarded with a custodial sentence.