Who agrees with Boris?

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meic
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Re: Who agrees with Boris?

Post by meic »

Face covering in public is a problem. Humans communicate largely with their faces and there is something deeply wrong about hiding your face from others in a space you share. I feel insulted that others choose to do it on our streets.

The counter argument to that, is that in a free society you should "get used to it". If more people wore Burkas then you would get normalised to the practice.

There are plenty of people who dont like other things that people get up to, like two men french kissing in public. Forty years ago it caused great outrage when the BBC showed that in a documentary, now it is probably a crime to be offended by it.
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Re: Who agrees with Boris?

Post by Vorpal »

pwa wrote:Face covering in public is a problem.
Is it? Does that mean we have to force people to get frostbite, instead of using scarves or balaclavas? Do ski slopes count as public places? How about a winter cyclist with a buff over their mouth and another under a helmet?

pwa wrote:I believe we need to discourage burka wearing but preferably without the heavy handed approach of the French and the Danes.

Why? What's the problem with it and how does it give you any problem? How does it matter more than whether you wear a tie or not?

There is a minimal to non-existant security threat posed by a face veil. Police can ask someone to remove face coverings if they believe there is a threat.

Even if some women are forced to wear them, banning or discouraging them will not help those women. In all likelihood, it will seclude them, when their oppressors no longer allow them to go out in public.

pwa wrote:there is something deeply wrong about hiding your face from others in a space you share. I feel insulted that others choose to do it on our streets. I don't mind other signs of religious affiliation, so it is not an anti-Islam thing, it is an anti-face covering thing.


Personally, I am proud to see a woman in a burka on the street. I live in a tolerant society that allows both them and me to dress however we wish. I think that is a good thing.
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landsurfer
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Re: Who agrees with Boris?

Post by landsurfer »

Vorpal wrote:
Personally, I am proud to see a woman in a burka on the street. I live in a tolerant society that allows both them and me to dress however we wish. I think that is a good thing.


Surely this an oxymoron. Proud to see a woman disengaging with society. Disengaging with life. Tolerant society? So tolerant that women are forced by violence, threats and worse by men to wear these garments.
When the Peshmerga freed women from the oppression of ISAL / ISIS their first move was to remove and burn the burka that marked them as slaves.
Proud of female slavery ?
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Cyril Haearn
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Re: Who agrees with Boris?

Post by Cyril Haearn »

[/quote]
Vorpal wrote
..
..
Personally, I am proud to see a woman in a burka on the street. I live in a tolerant society that allows both them and me to dress however we wish. I think that is a good thing.[/quote]
Plus One, mind, if clothes were banned for everyone, in summer at least, it would be hard to hide a weapon :wink:

At my grammar school we had to wear uniform, plus/minus?
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meic
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Re: Who agrees with Boris?

Post by meic »

landsurfer wrote:
Vorpal wrote:
Personally, I am proud to see a woman in a burka on the street. I live in a tolerant society that allows both them and me to dress however we wish. I think that is a good thing.


Surely this an oxymoron. Proud to see a woman disengaging with society. Disengaging with life. Tolerant society? So tolerant that women are forced by violence, threats and worse by men to wear these garments.
When the Peshmerga freed women from the oppression of ISAL / ISIS their first move was to remove and burn the burka that marked them as slaves.
Proud of female slavery ?


You dont right the wrong of compulsory burka wearing in distant countries by banning them in nearer ones.
Both are just cases of everybody thinking they have the right to tell other people what they can or cant wear.
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pwa
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Re: Who agrees with Boris?

Post by pwa »

Vorpal wrote:
pwa wrote:Face covering in public is a problem.
Is it? Does that mean we have to force people to get frostbite, instead of using scarves or balaclavas? Do ski slopes count as public places? How about a winter cyclist with a buff over their mouth and another under a helmet?

pwa wrote:I believe we need to discourage burka wearing but preferably without the heavy handed approach of the French and the Danes.

Why? What's the problem with it and how does it give you any problem? How does it matter more than whether you wear a tie or not?

There is a minimal to non-existant security threat posed by a face veil. Police can ask someone to remove face coverings if they believe there is a threat.

Even if some women are forced to wear them, banning or discouraging them will not help those women. In all likelihood, it will seclude them, when their oppressors no longer allow them to go out in public.

pwa wrote:there is something deeply wrong about hiding your face from others in a space you share. I feel insulted that others choose to do it on our streets. I don't mind other signs of religious affiliation, so it is not an anti-Islam thing, it is an anti-face covering thing.


Personally, I am proud to see a woman in a burka on the street. I live in a tolerant society that allows both them and me to dress however we wish. I think that is a good thing.


You can be tolerant without being accepting. I don't spit on or verbally abuse people with covered faces, and I would show courtesy if one spoke to me. But the fact that they cover their faces on our streets does bother me and I do believe it to be wrong. They are allowed beliefs, so I'll have a few as well. I believe in healthy societies people don't hide their faces.

A ban would be very heavy handed, but discouragement is a good idea.
reohn2
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Re: Who agrees with Boris?

Post by reohn2 »

meic wrote:
landsurfer wrote:
Vorpal wrote:
Personally, I am proud to see a woman in a burka on the street. I live in a tolerant society that allows both them and me to dress however we wish. I think that is a good thing.


Surely this an oxymoron. Proud to see a woman disengaging with society. Disengaging with life. Tolerant society? So tolerant that women are forced by violence, threats and worse by men to wear these garments.
When the Peshmerga freed women from the oppression of ISAL / ISIS their first move was to remove and burn the burka that marked them as slaves.
Proud of female slavery ?


You dont right the wrong of compulsory burka wearing in distant countries by banning them in nearer ones.
Both are just cases of everybody thinking they have the right to tell other people what they can or cant wear.

+1!
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Re: Who agrees with Boris?

Post by Vorpal »

pwa wrote:
A ban would be very heavy handed, but discouragement is a good idea.

Frankly, if they remain in the UK, and have families in the UK, I am quite sure that subsequent generations will be discouraged, simply by living in the culture.
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pete75
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Re: Who agrees with Boris?

Post by pete75 »

pwa wrote:
A ban would be very heavy handed, but discouragement is a good idea.

Well it would certainly fit in with Theresa May's idea of creating a hostile environment for immigrants - presumably in the hope they'll leave. In any case there's a lot of British women who'd make the country a more pleasant place if they did cover their faces in public. The hideous May is one for a start.
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Re: Who agrees with Boris?

Post by Vorpal »

landsurfer wrote:
Vorpal wrote:
Personally, I am proud to see a woman in a burka on the street. I live in a tolerant society that allows both them and me to dress however we wish. I think that is a good thing.


Surely this an oxymoron. Proud to see a woman disengaging with society. Disengaging with life. Tolerant society? So tolerant that women are forced by violence, threats and worse by men to wear these garments.
When the Peshmerga freed women from the oppression of ISAL / ISIS their first move was to remove and burn the burka that marked them as slaves.
Proud of female slavery ?

I don't have to be a fan of oppression to be proud to see a burqa on the street.

There are many symbols of oppression in the world. Some people (understandably) perceive the Union Jack that way. Or the US American flag.

Women burned their bras in the 60s. Should I fret to see women wearing them today?

No woman should be forced to wear anything she doesn't want to, least of all by men telling her what to do. That includes both wearing and banning the burqa.

Some women choose to wear a burqa, and if they choose freely, it could be as much a symbol of their freedom to do so as anything else.

We can hardly claim that we are promoting gender equality by banning a garment that some women freely choose to support and wear.
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pwa
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Re: Who agrees with Boris?

Post by pwa »

Vorpal wrote:
pwa wrote:
A ban would be very heavy handed, but discouragement is a good idea.

Frankly, if they remain in the UK, and have families in the UK, I am quite sure that subsequent generations will be discouraged, simply by living in the culture.

I don't know whether it is a significant proportion, but some women wearing the burka have mothers who don't and never did.
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Re: Who agrees with Boris?

Post by bovlomov »

pwa wrote:I don't know whether it is a significant proportion, but some women wearing the burka have mothers who don't and never did.

I believe the burqa is a tradition in Arabia. Why that spread to Muslims outside that region is an interesting question.

It is partly to do with Saudi funding of Islamic schools internationally, and its funding of violent extremism. Much of the implicit and explicit support for Saudi Arabia during that period has come from the same people who claim to be worried about the effects of Saudi's religious mission, as they are unwilling or incapable of putting two and two together.

I'm pretty certain that burqa wearing in London increased in the wake of British and US military action in Afghanistan and Iraq - perhaps also in response to George Bush's inflammatory and polarising language (Crusades, Axis of Evil, etc). It would be no surprise if some Muslims were less drawn to that form of Islam than pushed there.

An interesting subject that Johnson can't be bothered to think about unless he can find a self-promotion angle.
Last edited by bovlomov on 14 Aug 2018, 9:40am, edited 1 time in total.
geocycle
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Re: Who agrees with Boris?

Post by geocycle »

pwa wrote:
Vorpal wrote:
pwa wrote:
A ban would be very heavy handed, but discouragement is a good idea.

Frankly, if they remain in the UK, and have families in the UK, I am quite sure that subsequent generations will be discouraged, simply by living in the culture.

I don't know whether it is a significant proportion, but some women wearing the burka have mothers who don't and never did.


Yes the Burka is a relatively new 'tradition' and is rare in many muslim countries.

For me I think people (men or women) have a responsible to consider the impact of what they wear on others, it is not just a one way street. As well as security situations there is also a responsibility to consider other people's feelings. Conventions can change of course and what is socially acceptable will vary with context. However, facial expression has a longer history than any fashion.

For example, I was once interviewed at an Oxford college by a panel containing a man with a full face balaclava and fingerless gloves on a hot June day. This was designed to intimidate me as I could not get visual feedback and he asked all the obscure questions. If it was December and he'd just got off a bike maybe it would have been ok... I got the position but declined it!
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Re: Who agrees with Boris?

Post by random37 »

pwa wrote:I don't know whether it is a significant proportion, but some women wearing the burka have mothers who don't and never did.


I don't think it is our right to question what others choose to wear. I don't believe every woman wearing a burqa is being forced to do so by abusive men.

In this country, we are not like the places where the law dictates what others wear, and I hope that stays the same. I know you say it should be discouraged, but how do you do that, exactly?
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Re: Who agrees with Boris?

Post by NUKe »

geocycle wrote:For example, I was once interviewed at an Oxford college by a panel containing a man with a full face balaclava and fingerless gloves on a hot June day. This was designed to intimidate me as I could not get visual feedback and he asked all the obscure questions. If it was December and he'd just got off a bike maybe it would have been ok... I got the position but declined it!

What ?? you cant say something like that and not explain it that has got to be a story worth telling properly
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