Who agrees with Boris?

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roubaixtuesday
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Re: Who agrees with Boris?

Post by roubaixtuesday »

Feminism and Islam are mutually exclusive ideologies.


This is incorrect. See for instance:

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/04/11/opin ... d-way.html

What is correct is that fundamentalist Islam is misogynistic. But so are many other fundamentalist religious movements - there is nothing uniquely Islamic about the subjugation of women.

And, of course, none of this has anything to do with why Boris said what he did.

Mr Johnson, lest we forget, was insulting and demeaning women who wear the niqab.

Which is either
(1) Insulting and demeaning a coerced and oppressed minority to curry favour with racists and islamophobes or
(2) Insulting and demeaning a sincerely religious minority to curry favour with racists and islamophobes.

He would not get away with mocking Jews or even Sikhs for their traditional dress.

The main truth here is that Boris is an unprincipled opportunist willing to exploit vulnerable minorities for personal gain. It's nothing to do with helping women who wear traditional Islamic dress, quite the opposite.
Cyril Haearn
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Re: Who agrees with Boris?

Post by Cyril Haearn »

meic wrote:
That or you just don't want to answer ask difficult questions

Both. I did start trying to answer it but just about every sentence needed another three to remove ambiguity and it was just a no-hoper. Especially as it would only lead to another exponential increase of workload from a subsequent reply to it.

You can raise all the complicated, interleaved scenarios that you like but I cant see much point in wasting hours of my time doing your bidding.

It would be great if people could argue concisely, just make one point in a post*, then the answer could be short too

* I try to do that, I bet my posts are shorter than average
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meic
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Re: Who agrees with Boris?

Post by meic »

Ah Denmark, what a country. If any society breathes the spirit of liberty, this is it.

It was only a few weeks ago that I was in Copenhagen for some international conference, and as ever I rose early and went for a run. As I passed through some yuppie zone of warehouse conversions and posh restaurants I saw to my amazement that the Danes had also got up early for exercise – and they were diving stark naked into the bracing waters of the harbour. And I thought to myself – that’s the Danes for you; that’s the spirit of Viking individualism. I mean, we have a climate warmer than Denmark; but even so, would you expect to see Brits disrobing and plunging into the waters of Canary Wharf, or even Greenwich? We are pretty easy-going, but not that easy-going.

Denmark is the only country in Europe, as far as I know, that still devotes a large proportion of its capital city to an anarchist commune, called Christiania, where I remember spending a happy afternoon 25 years ago inhaling the sweet air of freedom. It is the Danes who still hold out against all sorts of EU tyrannies, large and small.

They still chew their lethal carcinogenic tobacco; they still eat their red-dyed frankfurters; they still use the krone rather than the euro; they still refuse to let foreigners buy holiday homes in Jutland; and of course it was the heroic population of Denmark that on that magnificent day in June 1992 stuck two fingers up to the elites of Europe and voted down the Maastricht treaty – and though that revolt was eventually crushed by the European establishment (as indeed, note, they will try to crush all such revolts), that great nej to Maastricht expressed something about the Danish spirit: a genial and happy cussedness and independence.

It is a spirit you see everywhere on the streets of Copenhagen in the veneration for that supreme embodiment of vehicular autonomy, the bicycle. The Danes don’t cycle with their heads down, grimly, in Lycra, swearing at people who get in their way. They wander and weave helmetless down the beautiful boulevards on clapped-out granny bikes, with a culture of cycling in which everyone is treated with courtesy and respect. Yes, if you wanted to visit a country that seemed on the face of it to embody the principles of JS Mill - that you should be able to do what you want provided you do no harm to others – I would advise you to head for wonderful, wonderful Copenhagen.

So I was a bit surprised to see that on August 1 the Danes joined several other European countries – France, Germany, Austria, Belgium – in imposing a ban on the niqab and the burka – those items of Muslim head-gear that obscure the female face. Already a fine of 1000 kroner – about £120 – has been imposed on a 28-year-old woman seen wearing a niqab in a shopping centre in the north eastern town of Horsholm. A scuffle broke out as someone tried to rip it off her head. There have been demonstrations, on both sides of the argument. What has happened, you may ask, to the Danish spirit of live and let live?If you tell me that the burka is oppressive, then I am with you. If you say that it is weird and bullying to expect women to cover their faces, then I totally agree – and I would add that I can find no scriptural authority for the practice in the Koran. I would go further and say that it is absolutely ridiculous that people should choose to go around looking like letter boxes; and I thoroughly dislike any attempt by any – invariably male – government to encourage such demonstrations of “modesty”, notably the extraordinary exhortations of President Ramzan Kadyrov of Chechnya, who has told the men of his country to splat their women with paintballs if they fail to cover their heads.

If a constituent came to my MP’s surgery with her face obscured, I should feel fully entitled – like Jack Straw – to ask her to remove it so that I could talk to her properly. If a female student turned up at school or at a university lecture looking like a bank robber then ditto: those in authority should be allowed to converse openly with those that they are being asked to instruct. As for individual businesses or branches of government – they should of course be able to enforce a dress code that enables their employees to interact with customers; and that means human beings must be able to see each other’s faces and read their expressions. It’s how we work.

All that seems to me to be sensible. But such restrictions are not quite the same as telling a free-born adult woman what she may or may not wear, in a public place, when she is simply minding her own business.

I am against a total ban because it is inevitably construed – rightly or wrongly – as being intended to make some point about Islam. If you go for a total ban, you play into the hands of those who want to politicise and dramatise the so-called clash of civilisations; and you fan the flames of grievance. You risk turning people into martyrs, and you risk a general crackdown on any public symbols of religious affiliation, and you may simply make the problem worse. Like a parent confronted by a rebellious teenager determined to wear a spike through her tongue, or a bolt through her nose, you run the risk that by your heavy-handed attempt to ban what you see as a bizarre and unattractive adornment you simply stiffen resistance.

The burka and the niqab were certainly not always part of Islam. In Britain today there is only a tiny, tiny minority of women who wear these odd bits of headgear. One day, I am sure, they will go.

The Danes swim starkers in the heart of Copenhagen. If The Killing is to be believed, their female detectives wear Faroe sweaters on duty, as is their sovereign right. If Danish women really want to cover their faces, then it seems a bit extreme – all the caveats above understood – to stop them under all circumstances. I don’t propose we follow suit. A total ban is not the answer.

I am not sure how he intended to inflame your street hooligans from behind The Telegraph's paywall.
There is a small section of our society who have self-appointed themselves as Guardians of our country's outrage but they are not really much in touch with the common people. Most people reading the above would think "what is all the fuss about", even those who wear lycra.
Johnson and Trump (possibly under Bannon's advice), I think, are making the rational decision to go over the heads of the self appointed minority directly to the common voters and making the gamble that authenticity and plain speaking will win more votes than trying to appease the gatekeepers who claim to speak for a public that they dont even condescend to listen to.
Same goes for Corbyn, he is facing the anti-semitic onslaught from Blairites and the media but the public seem to be staying with him, especially those who hear him without the filter of the media.
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roubaixtuesday
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Re: Who agrees with Boris?

Post by roubaixtuesday »

authenticity and plain speaking


Boris Johnson is prepared to say literally anything for power and attention and has no history of interest in women's rights whatsoever.

Consider whether you've been had if you think there is anything "authentic" about this.
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meic
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Re: Who agrees with Boris?

Post by meic »

Consider whether you've been had if you think there is anything "authentic" about this.

He is a politician, authentic ones are driven out because they are forced to abandon straight talking for couched statements. Boris is willing to say things which invoke the wrath of the establishment.
If he stands his ground on this, he will win respect for not caving in to those self appointed guardians.

I dont support Boris's politics but if he helps break the mold and stops the press and the twitter-sphere from dictating what the masses should be thinking then that would be a welcome change. I am sure he has factored that into his calculations.
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djnotts
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Re: Who agrees with Boris?

Post by djnotts »

"I dont support Boris's politics but if he helps break the mold and stops the press and the twitter-sphere from dictating what the masses should be thinking then that would be a welcome change."

If you don't support his politics then I fail to see how what he does can be a welcome change? I guess some/many saw Hitler as a welcome change. Be careful what you wish for....
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bovlomov
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Re: Who agrees with Boris?

Post by bovlomov »

meic wrote:I dont support Boris's politics but if he helps break the mold and stops the press and the twitter-sphere from dictating what the masses should be thinking then that would be a welcome change.

Boris has broken no moulds. He is an incurable liar, has squandered millions of public money, and has a talent for self-publicity. In those things he's like many politicians we already have, but a lot worse.
roubaixtuesday
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Re: Who agrees with Boris?

Post by roubaixtuesday »

Boris is willing to say things which invoke the wrath of the establishment.


Boris *is* the establishment, and is laughing at you.

You've been had.
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bovlomov
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Re: Who agrees with Boris?

Post by bovlomov »

I think even Johnson would be a little embarrassed by the claim about authenticity and plain speaking. Has there ever been a British politician that has lied so shamelessly, contradicted himself with such frequency, and been so devoid of principle? I can't think of one.

True, some people like to be offended, and Johnson has a talent for upsetting people who are concerned about political correctness, but that's hardly unique. These days, the political landscape is full of sniggering, smirking alt-right types (as they call themselves), who get great amusement from testing boundaries. (Can't you take a joke, you snowflakes?"). We've had it from Milo and Farage, and a host of others. It's getting rather tedious, as is Johnson.
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meic
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Re: Who agrees with Boris?

Post by meic »

BrianFox wrote:
Boris is willing to say things which invoke the wrath of the establishment.


Boris *is* the establishment, and is laughing at you.

You've been had.


It isnt Boris that is laughing at me it is you.
The desire to be smug just overules the commonsense of engaging and persuading and replaces it with the desire to be patronising and insulting.

It is the common theme which is helping raise the likes of Trump and Boris.
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roubaixtuesday
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Re: Who agrees with Boris?

Post by roubaixtuesday »

I'm not laughing at you, or anyone.

The whole situation lacks any comedic quality whatsoever.
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meic
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Re: Who agrees with Boris?

Post by meic »

I think even Johnson would be a little embarrassed by the claim about authenticity and plain speaking. Has there ever been a British politician that has lied so shamelessly, contradicted himself with such frequency, and been so devoid of principle? I can't think of one.

Which may be all true however he can quite successfully create the image, just as Farage did with enough voters.
It is a question of style, he appears to be the sort of politician not afraid to call a spade a spade, when the others appear to have put everything infront of the spin-doctor for approval before uttering a word.
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thirdcrank
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Re: Who agrees with Boris?

Post by thirdcrank »

meic wrote: ...Which may be all true however he can quite successfully create the image, just as Farage did with enough voters.
It is a question of style, he appears to be the sort of politician not afraid to call a spade a spade, when the others appear to have put everything infront of the spin-doctor for approval before uttering a word.


And his style is that he laughs everything off if he's in difficulty, while using the written word he's as good a spinner as any.
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bovlomov
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Re: Who agrees with Boris?

Post by bovlomov »

meic wrote:
I think even Johnson would be a little embarrassed by the claim about authenticity and plain speaking. Has there ever been a British politician that has lied so shamelessly, contradicted himself with such frequency, and been so devoid of principle? I can't think of one.

Which may be all true however he can quite successfully create the image, just as Farage did with enough voters.
It is a question of style, he appears to be the sort of politician not afraid to call a spade a spade, when the others appear to have put everything infront of the spin-doctor for approval before uttering a word.

Oh yes. I understand that. He's a symptom.

But the calling a spade a spade schtick is of no interest to me. He is dishonest to the core and he has repeatedly demonstrated that he is unfit for public office.
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meic
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Re: Who agrees with Boris?

Post by meic »

and he has repeatedly demonstrated that he is unfit for public office.

Yet the qualification needed is to be elected in your constituency. It is that old democracy problem again, what can be done about those errant voters who just keep making the wrong decision?
Yma o Hyd
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