Glyphosate

[Cyril Haearn]

Why has the National Forest been created please?

Were there a lot more trees before the rise of "civilisation"?

[PDQ Mobile]

You may not be over-fond of trees, but they are vital to the planet's ecosystem. And the natural habitat of the British Isles was originally, almost all forest (before Iron Age folk cut the trees down in huge swathes to make charcoal). Fell them if they really are in the way of something - but otherwise let them live.

I'm not saying that I don't want trees, I'm saying that they should be managed and weeded out. Most trees here are weeds and folk leave them until they're too big and expensive to cut down.

Have as many trees as you want, but not in my garden or near the house thank you!
Woodlands are fine and we need more.
Tree-lined streets are fine too but they need managing and they shouldn't be allowed to run riot.

What we need is the USAF to .... [etc.]

I would be cautious about making remarks like that on a public forum. There are people who were affected by the substance involved, who might get very upset...

I understand that completely - as I'm sure you know.

Would it be better if I'd suggested a nuclear bomb instead, or napalm too?

Actually I know someone that suffered a miscarriage from one of the constituents of Agent Orange, 245T, after it was used by the Forestry Commission near her NWales home in the late 70's.
It's foul stuff and your link to it describes its effects very well.


It all begs the question as to why the woodland is not used as a fuel resource?
For that would solve your problem - with benefits.
I think I know the answer!!

[pwa]

Most herbicides and insecticides are potentially harmful, but the harm can be limited or even eliminated by responsible use. I've been on a few spraying courses, and the focus is firmly on environmental considerations. Getting the dose right so that you are using the minimum needed. And the minimum required may be none. Getting the timing right so that you are not spraying bees and other valuable or benign species. Getting the distribution right so that you are not spraying that person hanging out their washing, or allowing a mist to descend on a stream.

[Mick F]

We moved to this address in April 1997 and almost had to hack our way into the place. The brambles had taken over the drive, so much so we had difficulty walking let alone trying to drive the car ................... and we had no idea of the extent of the garden due to brambles, sycamore run riot, bracken, more brambles and as thick as your wrist, and all manner of weeds and jungle. There was an oak tree near the front door and it was banging on the roof!

It took us the rest of the summer to clear the property.

Then, I set about clearing our adjoining woodland. Brambles, ivy, fallen dead trees, bracken, more brambles ......... you get the picture.

Slowly but surely, I cut the dead trees out - some of which was firewood for our newly installed woodburner - and then started to cut the trees down. I'm still doing this even today, nearly 22 year later and I've just come in from there for a cuppa having cut a load of fallen willow into bits, some for firewood, the rest for a bonfire. Shortly, I'm going back there with the brushcutter for more clearing up. Just under two acres of it.

We're self-sufficient in firewood and could open a pick-your-own business we have so much of it growing. Our wood is surrounded by other woods owned by various neighbours, but I'm the only one of us actually maintaining it and using it.

[Paulatic]

Most herbicides and insecticides are potentially harmful, but the harm can be limited or even eliminated by responsible use. I've been on a few spraying courses, and the focus is firmly on environmental considerations. Getting the dose right so that you are using the minimum needed. And the minimum required may be none. Getting the timing right so that you are not spraying bees and other valuable or benign species. Getting the distribution right so that you are not spraying that person handing out their washing, or allowing a mist to descend on a stream.

That’s true.
But
It’s also true so many people go on those courses to get an operators licence and then in the real world mix it strong and apply at anytime. Similar to drivers I suppose.

[pwa]

Most herbicides and insecticides are potentially harmful, but the harm can be limited or even eliminated by responsible use. I've been on a few spraying courses, and the focus is firmly on environmental considerations. Getting the dose right so that you are using the minimum needed. And the minimum required may be none. Getting the timing right so that you are not spraying bees and other valuable or benign species. Getting the distribution right so that you are not spraying that person hanging out their washing, or allowing a mist to descend on a stream.

That’s true.
But
It’s also true so many people go on those courses to get an operators licence and then in the real world mix it strong and apply at anytime. Similar to drivers I suppose.

Yes. What do you do about it? Ban all chemicals because some cowboys misuse them? I don't have an answer. Wish I did.

[Mick F]

I stayed at a B+B in Lochcarron some years ago, and the property had a stream running at the back of the garden but it was infested with Japanese Knotweed.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@57.39726 ... 312!8i6656

Glyphosate will eventually kill it, but it's a slow process, but next to a stream it's environmentally impossible.

[pwa]

We moved to this address in April 1997 and almost had to hack our way into the place. The brambles had taken over the drive, so much so we had difficulty walking let alone trying to drive the car ................... and we had no idea of the extent of the garden due to brambles, sycamore run riot, bracken, more brambles and as thick as your wrist, and all manner of weeds and jungle. There was an oak tree near the front door and it was banging on the roof!

It took us the rest of the summer to clear the property.

Then, I set about clearing our adjoining woodland. Brambles, ivy, fallen dead trees, bracken, more brambles ......... you get the picture.

Slowly but surely, I cut the dead trees out - some of which was firewood for our newly installed woodburner - and then started to cut the trees down. I'm still doing this even today, nearly 22 year later and I've just come in from there for a cuppa having cut a load of fallen willow into bits, some for firewood, the rest for a bonfire. Shortly, I'm going back there with the brushcutter for more clearing up. Just under two acres of it.

We're self-sufficient in firewood and could open a pick-your-own business we have so much of it growing. Our wood is surrounded by other woods owned by various neighbours, but I'm the only one of us actually maintaining it and using it.

I envy you, Mick. Do you have any literature on managing a woodland for nature? It is perfectly compatible with collecting firewood, maintaining paths and all that, but also includes leaving the odd standing dead tree trunk for woodpeckers, and not going too far with ivy removal as ivy is a valuable late season flower for bees. I completely understand your desire to get rid of excessive bramble and keep your garden areas clear of sycamore saplings.

[Cyril Haearn]

[list=][/list]

Most herbicides and insecticides are potentially harmful, but the harm can be limited or even eliminated by responsible use. I've been on a few spraying courses, and the focus is firmly on environmental considerations. Getting the dose right so that you are using the minimum needed. And the minimum required may be none. Getting the timing right so that you are not spraying bees and other valuable or benign species. Getting the distribution right so that you are not spraying that person hanging out their washing, or allowing a mist to descend on a stream.

That’s true.
But
It’s also true so many people go on those courses to get an operators licence and then in the real world mix it strong and apply at anytime. Similar to drivers I suppose.

Yes. What do you do about it? Ban all chemicals because some cowboys misuse them? I don't have an answer. Wish I did.

The sale of concentrate could be banned

[pwa]

[list=][/list]

That’s true.
But
It’s also true so many people go on those courses to get an operators licence and then in the real world mix it strong and apply at anytime. Similar to drivers I suppose.

Yes. What do you do about it? Ban all chemicals because some cowboys misuse them? I don't have an answer. Wish I did.

The sale of concentrate could be banned

And with it all treatment for japanese knotweed? Concentrate is already limited to professionals. Take it away and you lose their services.

[kwackers]

The sale of concentrate could be banned

But then the use of weak increases the rate weeds generate immunity and generally needs applying more frequently.

It's one of the main reasons for GM crops. You edit them to make them immune to glyphosate then blast them with one high strength dose which does in the weeds, rather than several spaced out weak doses which risks immunity and increases the overall amount used.

[kwackers]

Concentrate is already limited to professionals.

Is it? You can pick it up most places no problem for example: eBay link

Obviously you're 'supposed' to be a professional to buy and use it but there doesn't seem to be enforcement...

[pwa]

Concentrate is already limited to professionals.

Is it? You can pick it up most places no problem for example: eBay link

Mmmm. I'm just going off my local farm supplies place, who won't sell it to Joe Public. If it isn't limited to professionals it should be. There is a lot of potential harm to be done with that stuff in the wrong hands.

The retailer you link to does say under the product description that anyone using the product must have had the training required by law.

[kwackers]

Mmmm. I'm just going off my local farm supplies place, who won't sell it to Joe Public. If it isn't limited to professionals it should be. There is a lot of potential harm to be done with that stuff in the wrong hands.

I'm not sure what that harm would be. Glyphosate breaks down naturally by bacteria so it doesn't hang around for long.

You could use it to devastate large areas of green stuff but you can do that regardless of its strength.
It doesn't kill fish so wouldn't do much damage to watercourses and would disappear quite quickly.

I must admit the only time I've bought it was in a 5 litre container of concentrate. IIRC the online instructions recommend between 20:1 and 80:1. I use 50:1 for general path clearance once a year. For my ground elder after reading it was difficult to eradicate even with glyphosate (i.e. Roundup) I went for 20:1 and that did the trick (and nothing around it died apart from the edge of the grass where the ground elder had started invading and where it had caught a bit of overspray).

For brushing on the leaves of weeds I use 20:1 too, but then I'm brushing rather than spraying.

Personally I think the main problem is the same as antibiotics. Improper use, particularly with the watered down stuff which vastly increases the chances of resistance. Regardless of the paranoia for a substance that kills things it's very safe and when we need a replacement you have to ask; will it be as safe?

[thirdcrank]

My main use is dealing with weeds growing in the sand-filled gaps in block paving, which quickly fill with a layer of soil after re-sanding. I use a small disposable interior decorator's roller on a long handle of the type intended for decorating behind central heating radiators. This enables me to target weeds with some precision from an upright position, saving waste and unwanted application to nearby plants. I've occasionally used this to target weeds growing elsewhere by first placing a backing board under the weed to protect surrounding plants.