Speed Awareness Course

[thirdcrank]

I'm beginning to think that I'm imagining some of the bad driving I see. Amazing that we get any crashes at all.

[mjr]

And I'm not sure using a satnav is more distracting than the alternative of trying to spot the road signs and glancing illegally at a road map on your knee.

That's not a good alternative. You might as well say that a satnav isn't more distracting than trying to operate a sextant while driving!

Good motorists used to navigate by actually looking up the route before they started moving, writing the road numbers and route destinations (the ones in capitals on road maps because they appear on signs) onto sticky notes or before that masking tape along the edge of the dash above the dials. At least when people were trying to spot the road signs, they were looking outside their car and might spot other things like walkers and cyclists on the roads, rather than relying on a computer screen to tell them when to stop at junctions... and if the signs let you down, you turned around once you realised and retraced your route when it was safe, looking for the sign in the other direction, or you went all the way around a roundabout while checking the exit signs, which also broke up the flow and gave some people from other entries chance to get on the roundabout.

[mjr]

Observation at stop signs, the great majority can not read
Following distance, most close up on the motorway slip road, they are not willing to wait a few seconds, they cross unbroken lines to get ahead
On many roads even doing the maximum speed limit is too slow for the average driver
Illegal parking on junctions, corners, pavements, cycleways, a big problem in my leafy suburb although there is plenty of room to park legally
&c &c

The great majority of motorists cannot read? I've heard some crap on here but that...............

Yes, it would be better to conclude that the great majority of motorists don't read, rather than can't.

And you say that most drivers are committing the offences you describe? It'd be more accurate to say some.

No, I'd say it's more accurate to say most, based on my observations. Driving standards seem to have fallen through the floor, most of the way to hell.

Anyhow with most modern cars it's not possible to travel too close - they bleep at you and then brake if you do so. Our Mercs have had that feature for several years now and even our other car a cheap and cheerful Skoda Superb has it. They also do emergency stops by themselves in a lot quicker distance than the out dated stuff in the Highway Code.

And you think that's in most modern cars? It'd be more accurate to say some. I doubt "most" is true even for new cars sold this year or last year, but I welcome any counts.

Was it a Skoda Superb that braked on its own between the roll-out and real start (aka KM 0) and took Mark Cavendish out of a race earlier this year? https://road.cc/content/news/237586-rac ... dhabi-tour says drivers can turn the feature off and I bet plenty of tailgaters do, once it makes itself known.

[pwa]

And I'm not sure using a satnav is more distracting than the alternative of trying to spot the road signs and glancing illegally at a road map on your knee.

That's not a good alternative. You might as well say that a satnav isn't more distracting than trying to operate a sextant while driving!

Good motorists used to navigate by actually looking up the route before they started moving, writing the road numbers and route destinations (the ones in capitals on road maps because they appear on signs) onto sticky notes or before that masking tape along the edge of the dash above the dials. At least when people were trying to spot the road signs, they were looking outside their car and might spot other things like walkers and cyclists on the roads, rather than relying on a computer screen to tell them when to stop at junctions... and if the signs let you down, you turned around once you realised and retraced your route when it was safe, looking for the sign in the other direction, or you went all the way around a roundabout while checking the exit signs, which also broke up the flow and gave some people from other entries chance to get on the roundabout.

Your method would not work for a commercial driver with umpteen unfamiliar destinations per day. And when you are familiar with using (but not totally relying on) a satnav it can actually reduce the time you spend navigating and free up your attention for all the other things. Obviously anyone who has their eyes glued to the satnav, or who follows it slavishly, will be a liability, but I don't feel tempted to do either.

[thirdcrank]

... I don't feel tempted to do either.

Probably like you, I do my utmost to drive carefully. I keep distractions to a minimum eg my regular passengers know to be quiet when I ask them. I don't claim to be perfect by any means but saying "I try to drive carefully" says nothing at all about others. I'd be happy to believe that bad drivers are in a minority but they are real. Stand at any roadside and you can see drivers doing things like texting - and not isolated examples. One of my bugbears is drivers who cannot hold a conversation with a passenger without constantly turning their heads for eye contact. Sometime when you are a passenger in a vehicle, especially if you are being tailgated, watch the driver behind and see how much their attention is directed elsewhere.

[Mick F]

^^^^
Wot he said.

[Cunobelin]

Anyhow with most modern cars it's not possible to travel too close - they bleep at you and then brake if you do so. Our Mercs have had that feature for several years now and even our other car a cheap and cheerful Skoda Superb has it. They also do emergency stops by themselves in a lot quicker distance than the out dated stuff in the Highway Code.

Interesting that once again the shorter stopping distances are not evidenced, simply a claim that the "automatioc braking" is more efficient. Once again avoiding the fact that it is the driver reaction that is the problem.

More worrying is that you appear to believe this braking exists, if you are relying on this, then you need to read the manual!

lets look at the evidence on the automatic braking in the Skoda?



According to Euro NCAp reviewing the Skoda Front Assist......

Up to 30km/h Front Assistant applies full braking, and can detect moving or stationary objects; between 30km/h and 80km/h, there is no automatic braking but the system will warn the driver if it detects a stationary object;

Similar tests on the Mercedes system fromEuroNCAP showed that whilst the system did slow the car it "did not avoid collisions entirely", nd according to Mercedes themselves:

Depending on the situation this even prevents collisions up to a speed of 50 km/h.

This is a real concern if drivers are actually relying on these systems rather than driving in a sensible and responsible manner

The other concern is that this problem with the inefficiency of automatic braking dates back to the 1970s when this technology was introduced experimentally.

The problem was that it could cope with normal driving, but if you are traveling at 70 mph and someone crosses in front 10 feet away the algorithm thinks you should be at 10 mph and brakes accordingly.

[youtube]FWMSBd9VMBM[/youtube]



The resultant emergency braking in motorway conditions led to rear end collisions and multiple vehicle accidents. It was deemed unsafe, perhaps the reason why Skoda do not activate it at this speed.


I would of course welcome evidence that Skoda front assist works at these speeds, and how it deals with bad drivers cutting in

[pete75]

Observation at stop signs, the great majority can not read
Following distance, most close up on the motorway slip road, they are not willing to wait a few seconds, they cross unbroken lines to get ahead
On many roads even doing the maximum speed limit is too slow for the average driver
Illegal parking on junctions, corners, pavements, cycleways, a big problem in my leafy suburb although there is plenty of room to park legally
&c &c

The great majority of motorists cannot read? I've heard some crap on here but that...............

Yes, it would be better to conclude that the great majority of motorists don't read, rather than can't.

And you say that most drivers are committing the offences you describe? It'd be more accurate to say some.

No, I'd say it's more accurate to say most, based on my observations. Driving standards seem to have fallen through the floor, most of the way to hell.

Anyhow with most modern cars it's not possible to travel too close - they bleep at you and then brake if you do so. Our Mercs have had that feature for several years now and even our other car a cheap and cheerful Skoda Superb has it. They also do emergency stops by themselves in a lot quicker distance than the out dated stuff in the Highway Code.

And you think that's in most modern cars? It'd be more accurate to say some. I doubt "most" is true even for new cars sold this year or last year, but I welcome any counts.

Was it a Skoda Superb that braked on its own between the roll-out and real start (aka KM 0) and took Mark Cavendish out of a race earlier this year? https://road.cc/content/news/237586-rac ... dhabi-tour says drivers can turn the feature off and I bet plenty of tailgaters do, once it makes itself known.

Perhaps you should read an article before you post a link - it states " with Mercedes providing the official vehicles." Nor does it say drivers can turn it off rather that they would speak to mechanics about turning it off - if it was so easy to turn off it wouldn't need a mechanic. Anyhow did Cavendish run into the back of the car. If he did it was his own fault.

Skoda's are a much derided "joke" vehicle at the bottom of teh automotive food chain. If they have this feature then it's a good bet most "superior" makes will have it. A Skoda Superb(I love their irony in choosing that name) is fairly cheap as cars go. The one we have is a 2016 model and cost under £15,000 when bought in May.

[Cyril Haearn]

Does the sensor apply the two second rule? I think that is not enough
I get nervous when a mercedes is following me with bright headlights on

[pete75]

And I'm not sure using a satnav is more distracting than the alternative of trying to spot the road signs and glancing illegally at a road map on your knee.

That's not a good alternative. You might as well say that a satnav isn't more distracting than trying to operate a sextant while driving!

Good motorists used to navigate by actually looking up the route before they started moving, writing the road numbers and route destinations (the ones in capitals on road maps because they appear on signs) onto sticky notes or before that masking tape along the edge of the dash above the dials. At least when people were trying to spot the road signs, they were looking outside their car and might spot other things like walkers and cyclists on the roads, rather than relying on a computer screen to tell them when to stop at junctions... and if the signs let you down, you turned around once you realised and retraced your route when it was safe, looking for the sign in the other direction, or you went all the way around a roundabout while checking the exit signs, which also broke up the flow and gave some people from other entries chance to get on the roundabout.

With a GPS system you just listen to the directions. It's no different to having a navigator sitting beside you looking at a map and telling you which road to take at junctions.
Driving round and round roundabouts looking at the road signs - did you learn to drive at the Harry Worth school of motoring?

[thirdcrank]

Can I nudge this back towards speed awareness and similar courses?

Does anybody have an opinion on their value as a better way of improving driver behaviour than fines + endorsements?

We had a strongly negative view from a poster who has been on three but I rather like the idea that the instructors don't accept chelp from people on the course who feel affronted to be there. Also, my understanding is that as these courses have been offered for alleged speeding offences below the old enforcement levels, they have been a way of reducing the speed at which enforcement begins.

[mjr]

Was it a Skoda Superb that braked on its own between the roll-out and real start (aka KM 0) and took Mark Cavendish out of a race earlier this year? https://road.cc/content/news/237586-rac ... dhabi-tour says drivers can turn the feature off and I bet plenty of tailgaters do, once it makes itself known.

Perhaps you should read an article before you post a link - it states " with Mercedes providing the official vehicles."

I read it - or rather, I misread it as saying Mercedes provided the official vehicles to the Giro and MSR.

Nor does it say drivers can turn it off rather that they would speak to mechanics about turning it off - if it was so easy to turn off it wouldn't need a mechanic.

Perhaps you should read an article before you say it doesn't say "There was a little warning in the cars at the Tour Down Under reminding drivers to turn the auto-brake feature off"?

[pwa]

Can I nudge this back towards speed awareness and similar courses?

Does anybody have an opinion on their value as a better way of improving driver behaviour than fines + endorsements?

We had a strongly negative view from a poster who has been on three but I rather like the idea that the instructors don't accept chelp from people on the course who feel affronted to be there. Also, my understanding is that as these courses have been offered for alleged speeding offences below the old enforcement levels, they have been a way of reducing the speed at which enforcement begins.

I have attended and it was okay and worthwhile, with attendees contributing positively with thoughts on aspects of road safety. And it costs you money and time, which is a sort of penalty if that is what you are looking for.

[mjr]

With a GPS system you just listen to the directions. It's no different to having a navigator sitting beside you looking at a map and telling you which road to take at junctions.

Pull the other one - it's got bells on. I've never seen anyone else use a sat nav in voice-only mode. Most people have them stuck to the windscreen, screen on, looking at complex diagrams and arrows on it while they drive. Some even stick them in the main field of vision area (I'm sure there's a better term for that).

Driving round and round roundabouts looking at the road signs - did you learn to drive at the Harry Worth school of motoring?

It seems Harry Worth retired before my memory begins, so I hope you'll excuse me not understanding the reference!

Can I nudge this back towards speed awareness and similar courses?

Does anybody have an opinion on their value as a better way of improving driver behaviour than fines + endorsements?

I think they're pretty useless but it seems that the current fines+points system is about as useless, according to this report of the evaluation. I wonder if a course is cheaper for the public than points - anyone know?

Maybe NZ-style short suspensions are what's needed to change behaviour? Some time riding the bus or taking taxis might persuade motorists to take more care when they restart.

[Cyril Haearn]

..
..
Skoda's are a much derided "joke" vehicle at the bottom of teh automotive food chain. If they have this feature then it's a good bet most "superior" makes will have it. A Skoda Superb(I love their irony in choosing that name) is fairly cheap as cars go. The one we have is a 2016 model and cost under £15,000 when bought in May.

I thought skodas were just cheap volkswagens or audis, decades ago they were poor quality maybe
15000 seems a lot to me, one can get a decent vehicle for a couple of thousand
There is or was a skoda "Favorit" too, a lovely name

Anyone in the trade share my opinion of skodas?