Speed Awareness Course

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pete75
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Joined: 24 Jul 2007, 2:37pm

Re: Speed Awareness Course

Postby pete75 » 20 Aug 2018, 8:55pm

brynpoeth wrote:It is very hard to be sure what one saw decades ago, one calls up the memory of the memory of the recollection, anyone disagree?
Cycled a lot starting 1973, luckily cars were not so fast back then

Observing traffic now: the majority break the law, many commit two or more offences at once. Some of the offences were not possible back then. Speeding was possible but is easier now, -1


A lot depends on the individual's memory. You may be describing how yours works other peoples may well work differently.

What evidence do you have that most drivers are breaking the law and committing two offences at once?

brynpoeth
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Joined: 30 Nov 2013, 11:26am

Re: Speed Awareness Course

Postby brynpoeth » 20 Aug 2018, 9:03pm

pete75 wrote:
brynpoeth wrote:It is very hard to be sure what one saw decades ago, one calls up the memory of the memory of the recollection, anyone disagree?
Cycled a lot starting 1973, luckily cars were not so fast back then

Observing traffic now: the majority break the law, many commit two or more offences at once. Some of the offences were not possible back then. Speeding was possible but is easier now, -1


A lot depends on the individual's memory. You may be describing how yours works other peoples may well work differently.

What evidence do you have that most drivers are breaking the law and committing two offences at once?

Observation at stop signs, the great majority can not read
Following distance, most close up on the motorway slip road, they are not willing to wait a few seconds, they cross unbroken lines to get ahead
On many roads even doing the maximum speed limit is too slow for the average driver
Illegal parking on junctions, corners, pavements, cycleways, a big problem in my leafy suburb although there is plenty of room to park legally
&c &c
Entertainer, juvenile, curmudgeon
Cycling-of course, but it is far better on a Gillott
We love safety cameras, we love life

pete75
Posts: 11193
Joined: 24 Jul 2007, 2:37pm

Re: Speed Awareness Course

Postby pete75 » 20 Aug 2018, 9:13pm

brynpoeth wrote:
pete75 wrote:
brynpoeth wrote:It is very hard to be sure what one saw decades ago, one calls up the memory of the memory of the recollection, anyone disagree?
Cycled a lot starting 1973, luckily cars were not so fast back then

Observing traffic now: the majority break the law, many commit two or more offences at once. Some of the offences were not possible back then. Speeding was possible but is easier now, -1


A lot depends on the individual's memory. You may be describing how yours works other peoples may well work differently.

What evidence do you have that most drivers are breaking the law and committing two offences at once?

Observation at stop signs, the great majority can not read
Following distance, most close up on the motorway slip road, they are not willing to wait a few seconds, they cross unbroken lines to get ahead
On many roads even doing the maximum speed limit is too slow for the average driver
Illegal parking on junctions, corners, pavements, cycleways, a big problem in my leafy suburb although there is plenty of room to park legally
&c &c

The great majority of motorists cannot read? I've heard some crap on here but that...............

And you say that most drivers are committing the offences you describe? It'd be more accurate to say some. Anyhow with most modern cars it's not possible to travel too close - they bleep at you and then brake if you do so. Our Mercs have had that feature for several years now and even our other car a cheap and cheerful Skoda Superb has it. They also do emergency stops by themselves in a lot quicker distance than the out dated stuff in the Highway Code.
Last edited by pete75 on 20 Aug 2018, 9:23pm, edited 1 time in total.

brynpoeth
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Joined: 30 Nov 2013, 11:26am

Re: Speed Awareness Course

Postby brynpoeth » 20 Aug 2018, 9:18pm

pete75 wrote:
brynpoeth wrote:
pete75 wrote:
A lot depends on the individual's memory. You may be describing how yours works other peoples may well work differently.

What evidence do you have that most drivers are breaking the law and committing two offences at once?

Observation at stop signs, the great majority can not read
Following distance, most close up on the motorway slip road, they are not willing to wait a few seconds, they cross unbroken lines to get ahead
On many roads even doing the maximum speed limit is too slow for the average driver
Illegal parking on junctions, corners, pavements, cycleways, a big problem in my leafy suburb although there is plenty of room to park legally
&c &c

The great majority of motorists cannot read? I've heard some crap on here but that...............

There are great big signs with big letters "STOP" at the roadside, nearly all vehicles do not stop, police vehicles and buses do not stop
Ergo they cannot read!

Any other explanation? Alternative facts welcome!
Entertainer, juvenile, curmudgeon
Cycling-of course, but it is far better on a Gillott
We love safety cameras, we love life

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Cunobelin
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Joined: 6 Feb 2007, 7:22pm

Re: Speed Awareness Course

Postby Cunobelin » 20 Aug 2018, 9:20pm

It is notable that whilst there is evidence that distances are longer from the TRL being taken seriously by the RAC and others, whilst the claims that the distances are shorter are personal opinion and anecdote

There is a theory about the 0.67 response time used in the Highway Code that they were not evidence based, but tabulated to allow easy memorization and calculation. All you do is increase by increments of 0.5

20mph = 20x2
30mph=30x2.5
40mph=40x3

End so on

The new TRL suggestion is 1.5 s which is in line with many other countries including France and the US

Canada uses a 2.5 second response time for their Highway Code

Then we come to the claims of better braking, which again are anecdotal.

Let’s take ABS (Allows Braking and Steering. As one of those advances....These systems don't necessarily improve stopping distances, only there's a qualifier: typically, this is only true when road conditions are poor. When road conditions are good, ABS and non-ABS braking distances are roughly equivalent.

As for why ABS systems exist: The theory is that a slight loss in braking performance in wet weather is a good trade-off for maintaining steering control during emergencies...In other words an advance that actuall can extend braking, adding to the problems with unrealistic response times

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Cunobelin
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Joined: 6 Feb 2007, 7:22pm

Re: Speed Awareness Course

Postby Cunobelin » 20 Aug 2018, 9:32pm

pete75 wrote:
brynpoeth wrote:
pete75 wrote:
A lot depends on the individual's memory. You may be describing how yours works other peoples may well work differently.

What evidence do you have that most drivers are breaking the law and committing two offences at once?

Observation at stop signs, the great majority can not read
Following distance, most close up on the motorway slip road, they are not willing to wait a few seconds, they cross unbroken lines to get ahead
On many roads even doing the maximum speed limit is too slow for the average driver
Illegal parking on junctions, corners, pavements, cycleways, a big problem in my leafy suburb although there is plenty of room to park legally
&c &c

The great majority of motorists cannot read? I've heard some crap on here but that...............

And you say that most drivers are committing the offences you describe? It'd be more accurate to say some.


There are figures:

I chose speeding, because this extends stopping distance and mobile phones which affect the response time, thus being relevant
One research study looked at driver behavior, even if the results are based on car type, the frequency would suggest that most is rather more accurate than a fewrather then a few!

Mobile phone use whilst driving
Skoda - 92 per cent

Renault - 89 per cent

Hyundai - 87 per cent

Nissan - 87 per cent

Speeding
Mitsubishi - 92 per cent

Jaguar - 86 per cent

Mini - 72 per cent

BMW - 68 per cent




Another study shows 78% of drivers admit using a phone whilst driving

brynpoeth
Posts: 10108
Joined: 30 Nov 2013, 11:26am

Re: Speed Awareness Course

Postby brynpoeth » 20 Aug 2018, 9:44pm

pete75 wrote:
brynpoeth wrote:
pete75 wrote:
A lot depends on the individual's memory. You may be describing how yours works other peoples may well work differently.

What evidence do you have that most drivers are breaking the law and committing two offences at once?

Observation at stop signs, the great majority can not read
Following distance, most close up on the motorway slip road, they are not willing to wait a few seconds, they cross unbroken lines to get ahead
On many roads even doing the maximum speed limit is too slow for the average driver
Illegal parking on junctions, corners, pavements, cycleways, a big problem in my leafy suburb although there is plenty of room to park legally
&c &c

The great majority of motorists cannot read? I've heard some crap on here but that...............

And you say that most drivers are committing the offences you describe? It'd be more accurate to say some. Anyhow with most modern cars it's not possible to travel too close - they bleep at you and then brake if you do so. Our Mercs have had that feature for several years now and even our other car a cheap and cheerful Skoda Superb has it. They also do emergency stops by themselves in a lot quicker distance than the out dated stuff in the Highway Code.

Haven't driven such a modern vehicle
I bet many drivers turn the bleeper off

One sees processions of dozens of vehicles too close together
I wonder what the vehicle thinks is a safe distance
Entertainer, juvenile, curmudgeon
Cycling-of course, but it is far better on a Gillott
We love safety cameras, we love life

pete75
Posts: 11193
Joined: 24 Jul 2007, 2:37pm

Re: Speed Awareness Course

Postby pete75 » 21 Aug 2018, 8:43am

brynpoeth wrote:
pete75 wrote:
brynpoeth wrote:Observation at stop signs, the great majority can not read
Following distance, most close up on the motorway slip road, they are not willing to wait a few seconds, they cross unbroken lines to get ahead
On many roads even doing the maximum speed limit is too slow for the average driver
Illegal parking on junctions, corners, pavements, cycleways, a big problem in my leafy suburb although there is plenty of room to park legally
&c &c

The great majority of motorists cannot read? I've heard some crap on here but that...............

There are great big signs with big letters "STOP" at the roadside, nearly all vehicles do not stop, police vehicles and buses do not stop
Ergo they cannot read!

Any other explanation? Alternative facts welcome!


Yes - they just ignore the signs.

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Mick F
Spambuster
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Joined: 7 Jan 2007, 11:24am
Location: Tamar Valley, Cornwall

Re: Speed Awareness Course

Postby Mick F » 21 Aug 2018, 8:54am

Cunobelin wrote:Another study shows 78% of drivers admit using a phone whilst driving
What do they mean by "using"?

I suppose it means actually handling it, but I reckon "using" is a whole different thing these days.
Satnav on a phone?
Hands free calls?

I've done both of those things on many many occasions, but never actually handled it.
Mick F. Cornwall

pwa
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Joined: 2 Oct 2011, 8:55pm

Re: Speed Awareness Course

Postby pwa » 21 Aug 2018, 9:35am

Cunobelin wrote:
pwa wrote:The car I currently drive will stop in a shorter distance than the Mk 2 Ford Escort I learned to drive in. I can't quote any figures but I am pretty certain of that. Better brakes and tyres, ABS. Does that mean I take up the slack by going faster and leaving less distance to the vehicle in front? I don't think so. If anything I think awareness of those safety issues is at least as high as when cars were crap. Awareness of the unacceptability of drink (or drug) driving is far greater. So my impression is that real life stopping distances are lower now.


Not according to TRL...........

Don’t forget that an individual may have faster responses, not be watching the satnav, on their phone etc

These are the ones that need to be legislated for

I remember my mother losing a front wing of her Morris Traveller after driving into the back of a stationary coal lorry while distracted by my younger brother who she was driving to school, around 1975. And I'm not sure using a satnav is more distracting than the alternative of trying to spot the road signs and glancing illegally at a road map on your knee. There have always been distractions.

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Cunobelin
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Joined: 6 Feb 2007, 7:22pm

Re: Speed Awareness Course

Postby Cunobelin » 21 Aug 2018, 9:45am

Mick F wrote:
Cunobelin wrote:Another study shows 78% of drivers admit using a phone whilst driving
What do they mean by "using"?

I suppose it means actually handling it, but I reckon "using" is a whole different thing these days.
Satnav on a phone?
Hands free calls?

I've done both of those things on many many occasions, but never actually handled it.


The study said operated whilst holding it in their hand, which contravenes the law

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Cunobelin
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Joined: 6 Feb 2007, 7:22pm

Re: Speed Awareness Course

Postby Cunobelin » 21 Aug 2018, 10:06am

pwa wrote:
Cunobelin wrote:
pwa wrote:The car I currently drive will stop in a shorter distance than the Mk 2 Ford Escort I learned to drive in. I can't quote any figures but I am pretty certain of that. Better brakes and tyres, ABS. Does that mean I take up the slack by going faster and leaving less distance to the vehicle in front? I don't think so. If anything I think awareness of those safety issues is at least as high as when cars were crap. Awareness of the unacceptability of drink (or drug) driving is far greater. So my impression is that real life stopping distances are lower now.


Not according to TRL...........

Don’t forget that an individual may have faster responses, not be watching the satnav, on their phone etc

These are the ones that need to be legislated for

I remember my mother losing a front wing of her Morris Traveller after driving into the back of a stationary coal lorry while distracted by my younger brother who she was driving to school, around 1975. And I'm not sure using a satnav is more distracting than the alternative of trying to spot the road signs and glancing illegally at a road map on your knee. There have always been distractions.




Relying on. SatNav rather than the road and the signs is a massive source of error.

Firstly there is the assumption that the SatNav is right. there is a village in Kent, where the SatNav appears to show a road having priority on a crossroads... it doesn't, yet people are ignoring the Give Way signs, Stop line and mahoosive triangle and barrelling across at speed because the "SatNav says so"


... and we all know the classic of taking a road because the "SatNav says so" where obvious visual clues would tell you it was a river, rail track or simply too narrow.

THis guy followed his SatNav for about 1/2 a mile down this "road" because the "SatNav says so"

Image

Not unique either:

Image

This driver drove into a river because the "SatNav said so"

Image

I could go on as drivers have driven along rail tracks as well.

Then there are the HGVs who again rely on "The SatNav says so"

Image



Now what was that about drivers not reading or understanding roads and road signs?

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Cunobelin
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Joined: 6 Feb 2007, 7:22pm

Re: Speed Awareness Course

Postby Cunobelin » 21 Aug 2018, 10:08am

pete75 wrote:
brynpoeth wrote:
pete75 wrote:The great majority of motorists cannot read? I've heard some crap on here but that...............

There are great big signs with big letters "STOP" at the roadside, nearly all vehicles do not stop, police vehicles and buses do not stop
Ergo they cannot read!

Any other explanation? Alternative facts welcome!


Yes - they just ignore the signs.



Thus choosing to drive in a dangerous manner?

Worse in so many ways...

brynpoeth
Posts: 10108
Joined: 30 Nov 2013, 11:26am

Re: Speed Awareness Course

Postby brynpoeth » 21 Aug 2018, 10:12am

Many foreign drivers cannae read English

A significant number of adults (10%+?) are functionality illiterate

Plenty more can read but choose not to
Entertainer, juvenile, curmudgeon
Cycling-of course, but it is far better on a Gillott
We love safety cameras, we love life

pwa
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Joined: 2 Oct 2011, 8:55pm

Re: Speed Awareness Course

Postby pwa » 21 Aug 2018, 10:16am

Satnavs get it wrong. That is an important bit of awareness when using one. So you must always be ready to ignore it when appropriate.

But I find a satnav allows me to get in my head which exit I will be taking at the next roundabout several hundred metres before I get there, removing that question as I near the junction and want to concentrate on other things. Yes, of course, if it turns out the exit the satnav wants me to take is now a No Entry I take an alternative and rethink, but mostly it works better than looking for signs that don't always have the information I need. I find the satnav less distracting than a signs and maps way of navigating.