No meat; no dairy; no....?

[661-Pete]

I usually put milk in my tea, but not always. And sometimes it's other types of herbal infusion (e.g. mint tea) - always without milk. And I'll sometimes take coffee black if it's good coffee - otherwise white. No consistency in my habits, see....

It's the cheese that tweaks my conscience. Eat quite a lot of it. And there's really no alternative. Though quite a lot of it is sheep's or goat's cheese, don't know if that helps.

[al_yrpal]

Splashed out on Ottolenghi's new cookbook 'Simple'. Preponderance of amazing veggie recipes. But quite a few meat ones too. Just the thing for meat eaters wishing to cut down a bit and be more adventurous with veg. He has a reputation for huge lists of ingredients and complexity, so its his version of simple, ie not so simple…

Al

[Rossco8854]

I thought I'd let this article, and others like it, simmer (no pun intended!) for a while before posting. OK we've had stories like this crop (again no pun) up in the past, but this one seems a lot more authoritative. Article in Nature; UN backing and all that.

So what about it? Speaking for myself, having already forsworn all meat, I can't actually eat less than no meat! But the dairy - we still eat a lot, cheese especially - and that's difficult. Next shopping trip, I'll see if Mrs P will allow me to pick up a bottle of oat milk, just to see if it works OK in tea and coffee. But when it comes to making a bechamel sauce, etc., it may simply not work...

And the cheese! I've never tried vegan cheese, but some of those who have, declare that it's ghastly. Of course, it's all a matter of personal taste. And they may be prejudiced...

Are we prejudiced...?

I've been vegan for over 2 years and the cheese is terrible in my opinion but my vegetarian girlfriend who still eats cheese like it. Most vegans or people have tried it say it is no comparison to real cheese but I can vouch for the oat milk, it's tasty for all things cooking included.

[661-Pete]

Splashed out on Ottolenghi's new cookbook 'Simple'. Preponderance of amazing veggie recipes. But quite a few meat ones too. Just the thing for meat eaters wishing to cut down a bit and be more adventurous with veg. He has a reputation for huge lists of ingredients and complexity, so its his version of simple, ie not so simple…

Al

We don't have that book, but we do have two other Yotam Ottolenghi books: Plenty and Jerusalem. We find the former has somewhat more useful content, to us, than the latter - but that's just personal opinion. We have a vast shelfload of recipe books accumulated over the years, out of which relatively few recipes we have actually tried (even counting only the meatless ones). A shame really - but we already have a pretty big repertoire of different dishes - more so than many carnivores I suspect! It takes about 3 weeks before any specific dinner gets repeated, chez 661!

[Cunobelin]

Perhaps we can come to some sort of deal.... a bit like trading off Carbon emissions

I have a colleague who is vegetarian...... I can eat his meat, and he can have my vegetables.

We would therefore be "meat neutral"

[Freddie]

No meat; no dairy; no....life?

Seriously, giving both up takes a tremendous effort of will and most vegan food (that acts as a replacement for the above) is appalling.

[al_yrpal]

Ever since visiting Jordan some years ago and sampling middle eastern salads we have been fans of their cuisine. First it was recipes from Claudia Roden's books and later Ottelenghi. We discovered Belazu a couple of years ago, a great source of ready prepared mediterranean ingredients. They do great hampers which make great rather special Christmas presents. https://www.belazu.com/shop/belazu-hamper If, like me, you get bored with the tastes of conventional food an adventure with the tastes of the middle east is a welcome change.

Al

[Si]

My current fave restaurant is a vegan one. They dont faff arond trying to do meat substitutes - why bother when you can make amazing tasting food that tastes like what it is? I also much prefer alpro to cow juice.

I'm not a vegan, i just find that there is lots of nice vegan food out there if you make a small effort to find or make it.

Meat, on the other hand, is often really boring unless you add vegan ingredients to it.

[Freddie]

I'm not disputing there is pleasant vegan food in existence, but outside of major cities, it is rather scarce - also, you have to plan most of your meals in advance, as you can't just pick up something ad hoc that will satisfy (again, outside major cities). Obtaining significant calories as a vegan takes a LOT of food, as the calorie density isn't there like it is with dairy and meat.

[Ben@Forest]

Not sure how keen this lot would be on a vegan diet:

https://www.wired.com/2012/09/milk-meat-and-blood-how-diet-drives-natural-selection-in-the-maasai/

And of course it's not just the Maasai - the remaining nomadic or semi-nomadic peoples exist on what their animals provide - not what could be grown - and in almost all cases they are living within a natural existing grazing system - not ploughing up pastoral environments (or cutting down trees to grow cereal crops). European delight with quinoa is an example of the law of unintended consequences!

[Rossco8854]

I'm not disputing there is pleasant vegan food in existence, but outside of major cities, it is rather scarce - also, you have to plan most of your meals in advance, as you can't just pick up something ad hoc that will satisfy (again, outside major cities). Obtaining significant calories as a vegan takes a LOT of food, as the calorie density isn't there like it is with dairy and meat.

Disagree wholeheartedly with that comment. It's easier than you would ever imagine and it also depends on what you define as pleasant, most restaurants/cafes are also very adaptable for vegan food.

[661-Pete]

Seriously, giving both up takes a tremendous effort of will

Maybe it does, for some people: I can't answer for everyone. Cutting down is easier than giving up.

... and most vegan food (that acts as a replacement for the above) is appalling.

Honestly - it isn't! Maybe you've not tried enough examples. Going to a run-of-the-mill restaurant that offers one uninspiring "veggie option" on its menu is not a fair test. Get a vegan who's a good cook, to cook you dinner, perhaps?

[661-Pete]

I'm not disputing there is pleasant vegan food in existence, but outside of major cities, it is rather scarce - also, you have to plan most of your meals in advance, as you can't just pick up something ad hoc that will satisfy (again, outside major cities). Obtaining significant calories as a vegan takes a LOT of food, as the calorie density isn't there like it is with dairy and meat.

It is true - perhaps - that it's easier to go vegan once you're retired and have time to cook for yourselves. And it does need a bit of meal planning to ensure a balanced diet. But the basic ingredients are generally easy to get in any decent supermarket.

I can also assure you that our occasional fully-vegan dinners comprise a lot of calories. Too many, in my case .

Your comment about getting supplies outside of major cities, brings to mind this article from a few days ago. But the article talks of 'food deserts' within our cities, in impoverished inner-city districts. Most depressing...

[Freddie]

Get a vegan who's a good cook, to cook you dinner, perhaps?

I don't think most vegans are good cooks. Their dietary choices trump their cooking skills and many seem to have an odd relationship with food in general. A lot of the 'I'm a vegan, this is what I eat' videos on youtube seem to be endless piles of fruit (huge amounts of sugar) and salads. Most of the cooked stuff is unappealing, resembling baby food or a thoughtless stew of whatever things they can throw together.

One could cook a Thai curry, coconut milk being one of the few sources of fat possible on a vegan diet, but almost all of the prepared pastes (and it would cost and arm and a leg to make your own) have shrimp paste in (vegans beware, that Thai curry house you like, they are using curry paste with shrimp in!)

I have been to a vegan restaurant that I have fond memories of, but it took much more food to be satisfied, probably because it is so low in fat (and usually high sugar) as a diet. There is no satisfied feeling to be had with this food, that is to be had with much vegetarian food that has butter and cream involved.

A vegan diet has to be supplemented with B12 and other vitamins that vegetarians and meat eaters get from their food. There are no historical records of vegan populations that I know of, even in India where they are vegetarian they will use lashings of butter and cream.

It is true - perhaps - that it's easier to go vegan once you're retired and have time to cook for yourselves. And it does need a bit of meal planning to ensure a balanced diet. But the basic ingredients are generally easy to get in any decent supermarket.

A vegan must spend at least 4 times as long thinking about their food. Want a sandwich? No, sorry, it has butter/mayonnaise. Some dark chocolate, better check it has no milk powder (hello Green & Blacks). No wonder vegans are consumed with their diet, they spend so much time thinking about, preparing and then thinking about food again. They have made a prison out of their food and I can't help feel there is some degree of OCD involved. My suspicions about this are aroused even further when you get to the 'raw food' advocates and 'fruitarians' and the like.

[Cyril Haearn]

Sadly commercial interests are involved too, lots of people pay more unnecessarily for processed foods "free from.." instead of buying simple food, the fresh vegs are by the entrance in my local "co-op", why are they put first?

Plus One for porridge!