Trains...why?

[mjr]

One feature I like: you can see at a glance the range of alternative fares for a journey, and make your choice. Try asking a harassed booking-clerk in the rush hour, about cheaper fares!

Most ticket counter staff have been very good, even in rush hour, cheerfully helping you use the wrinkles like the various group or split tickets or that a ticket to London Terminals being cheaper than one to London (which includes a transfer by London Transport) but it used to be that sometimes that an even cheaper option was possible, such as a London Travelcard and boundary extension, or a ticket restricted to a particular terminal, if it was valid for your journey. One of the drawbacks of the machines is that if you picked the readily-offered wrong "London" on the first screen, then you wouldn't be offered the cheaper alternative fares - and I don't think I've ever known a machine offer a bike reservation where it's been needed.

There are also a few tickets which now cannot be bought at station machines or counters, such as the London International ones to connect with Eurostar (so if you're delayed into London, Eurostar will definitely get you on another train), which is rather annoying.

[661-Pete]

....an even cheaper option was possible, such as a London Travelcard and boundary extension...

Be careful with London Travelcards. They can actually work out quite expensive - especially if they cover 'all zones'. We discovered, recently, that if your trip involves a train into a London terminal followed by Tube journeys to and from a single destination, it's far cheaper to buy separate tickets.

And with 'contactless', paying for a London Tube journey is dead easy nowadays - if you have a bank card...

[peetee]

It's difficult to give only one answer to 'why trains'. On an emotive level I happen to like the things. On the other hand, my experience of using them over the years was usually fraught. Years ago I used to travel from Southampton to Redruth. By road this is a little over 200 miles. By rail it was 8 hours. If I was half the cyclist I wished I was I could have ridden it as quickly as the train. Getting to work was no easier at 15mph average which included a totally unacceptable 22 minute wait, outdoors, for a connecting train. It was a poor rail service that caused me, at the age of 26, to admit defeat and learn to drive.
There is no doubt that we need trains. For a number of years now passenger miles have been increasing. Had that option not been available the already stretched road network would not have been able to cope.

[mercalia]

....an even cheaper option was possible, such as a London Travelcard and boundary extension...

Be careful with London Travelcards. They can actually work out quite expensive - especially if they cover 'all zones'. We discovered, recently, that if your trip involves a train into a London terminal followed by Tube journeys to and from a single destination, it's far cheaper to buy separate tickets.

And with 'contactless', paying for a London Tube journey is dead easy nowadays - if you have a bank card...

or a suitable smartphone - though I would never use one for that

[irc]

A timely thread. I had my first experience of First Class train travel this week Traveling from Glasgow to York via Edinburgh. Booked 12 weeks ahead for cheap tickets. The choice for a single was £22 2nd class or £42 1st class.

At 6ft3 and 16stone I find train seats cramped on busy trains in 2nd class where 4 people share a table. So for the extra £20 we got single seats sharing a table with the benefit of the table on the other side of the carriage also being single seats so the aisle was wide enough for people to pass up and down without brushing against us. I think the extra wide section of aisle is so people can pass when the refreshments trolley is halfway up the carriage.

The extra £20 was worth it for the extra comfort alone. In addition when we changed train at Edinburgh we could use the First Class lounge with comfortable seats and free coffee and snacks and a copy of the Times. Then on the train there was free beers or wine, tea, coffee, and a small meal (lamb stew for me).

Taking into account what I would otherwise have spent on a beer or two and snacks and paper, the £20 upgrade to First Class virtually paid for itself. Top marks to LNER.

Obviously that is rail at it's best. Without forward planning it is far more expensive and I would drive rather than pay on the day prices. Locally it can't match the car for most journeys being less comfortable and far slower door to door not to mention being impossible for many journeys when I start early or finish late.

Rails should be good for long distance city centre to city centre journeys. Also for commuter travel into congested cities. For the travel outside those areas though the car is hard to beat annd of course the bike is unbeatable for short inner city journeys.

[100%JR]

Rails should be good for long distance city centre to city centre journeys. Also for commuter travel into congested cities. For the travel outside those areas though the car is hard to beat and of course the bike is unbeatable for short inner city journeys.

Exactly.Trains are just not viable for us.
Q.We go to Keswick on holiday regularly.It's 140 miles so costs about £20 one way in fuel and takes about 2 hours.Trains run nowhere near Keswick(Windermere is closest?) so how would I get a family of 4,plus Dog,2 Bikes,luggage and a 40kg Tent plus all other camping gear on the train?
A.I wouldn't
Just not viable.

[PH]

Rails should be good for long distance city centre to city centre journeys. Also for commuter travel into congested cities. For the travel outside those areas though the car is hard to beat and of course the bike is unbeatable for short inner city journeys.

Exactly.Trains are just not viable for us.
Q.We go to Keswick on holiday regularly.It's 140 miles so costs about £20 one way in fuel and takes about 2 hours.Trains run nowhere near Keswick(Windermere is closest?) so how would I get a family of 4,plus Dog,2 Bikes,luggage and a 40kg Tent plus all other camping gear on the train?
A.I wouldn't
Just not viable.

Is anyone suggesting you should?

[horizon]

Rails should be good for long distance city centre to city centre journeys. Also for commuter travel into congested cities. For the travel outside those areas though the car is hard to beat and of course the bike is unbeatable for short inner city journeys.

Exactly.Trains are just not viable for us.
Q.We go to Keswick on holiday regularly.It's 140 miles so costs about £20 one way in fuel and takes about 2 hours.Trains run nowhere near Keswick(Windermere is closest?) so how would I get a family of 4,plus Dog,2 Bikes,luggage and a 40kg Tent plus all other camping gear on the train?
A.I wouldn't
Just not viable.

1. According to HMRC, that journey would cost £126 by car. That would cover advance tickets with a family railcard further one third off.
2. The train would carry the bikes, the bikes would carry the luggage.
3. The final stage of the journey from the station to your destination is done by ... bike.
4. Your luggage would be matched to your bike. My young children carried all their camping gear on their own bikes. 40 kg tent tent . . . hmmmm.
5. I travel regularly by train with my camping gear.

It's not impossible, it's just that your entire plan is predicated on going by car. And of course the hope that the people who go to the Lakes for the fresh air don't mind your fumes ...

You should try it - just for the sheer fun of it (for your children) and write a Guardian piece about it ....

[100%JR]

Rails should be good for long distance city centre to city centre journeys. Also for commuter travel into congested cities. For the travel outside those areas though the car is hard to beat and of course the bike is unbeatable for short inner city journeys.

Exactly.Trains are just not viable for us.
Q.We go to Keswick on holiday regularly.It's 140 miles so costs about £20 one way in fuel and takes about 2 hours.Trains run nowhere near Keswick(Windermere is closest?) so how would I get a family of 4,plus Dog,2 Bikes,luggage and a 40kg Tent plus all other camping gear on the train?
A.I wouldn't
Just not viable.

1. According to HMRC, that journey would cost £126 by car. That would cover advance tickets with a family railcard further one third off.
2. The train would carry the bikes, the bikes would carry the luggage.
3. The final stage of the journey from the station to your destination is done by ... bike.
4. Your luggage would be matched to your bike. My young children carried all their camping gear on their own bikes. 40 kg tent tent . . . hmmmm. Vango Maritsa 700.Check it out online https://www.outdoorkit.co.uk/product.ph ... ct_id=5523
5. I travel regularly by train with my camping gear.

It's not impossible, it's just that your entire plan is predicated on going by car. And of course the hope that the people who go to the Lakes for the fresh air don't mind your fumes ...

You should try it - just for the sheer fun of it (for your children) and write a Guardian piece about it ....

1.How do you get £126 by car?The journey is 140miles.Car does just under 50 to the Gallon.So call it 3 gallons=£20.So that's £40 return!
2.Luggage for 4 people for 2 weeks on 2 bikes?Good luck.Oh and Dog?
3.40kg tent on 2 bikes...again good luck.My wife drives a Vauxhall Corsa...the tent will only fit in the boot if you remove the parcel shelf!
FYI the tent alone is in THREE bags.Two of them are bigger that an average suitcase and the poles are in a bag of their own which is waist height.Then there's stove/sleeping bag etc,etc.
I have a large estate car.That is packed to the roof PLUS a roof Box and a bike carrier on the rear.For that reason we are buying a 5 seater VW Transporter!
If you actually think you could do that on a Train i would pay good money to witness it.
In fact I'd pay for your Holiday if you could get just the tent on your bikes

[horizon]

100%JR: I'm not suggesting you really should do it (a lot depends on the age of your children) but I do want to challenge your assumptions - if only for the fun of it. Lots of people camp with just bicycles and that includes camping with children (I've done it). It's worth thinklng about how that pans out, from the POV of a better experience.

BTW, most people are adequately tented at around 2 kg per person. Yes, travelling by train, with children and camping is difficult but not impossible (I recall the delightful French couple travelling with their child on a South West Trains service during the summer, complete with camping gear, child trailer and bikes).

BTW No.2: the cost of motoring is estimated at 45 ppm (that's the HMRC figure, not mine). The idea that motorists always look at the marginal cost and rail travel pricing is based on whole cost underpins much of what this thread is about. So that's 140 x 2 (return I presume) x 45p = £126.00. Children travel at half price less advance deduction less one third family rail card.

[Cyril Haearn]

Rails should be good for long distance city centre to city centre journeys. Also for commuter travel into congested cities. For the travel outside those areas though the car is hard to beat and of course the bike is unbeatable for short inner city journeys.

Exactly.Trains are just not viable for us.
Q.We go to Keswick on holiday regularly.It's 140 miles so costs about £20 one way in fuel and takes about 2 hours.Trains run nowhere near Keswick(Windermere is closest?) so how would I get a family of 4,plus Dog,2 Bikes,luggage and a 40kg Tent plus all other camping gear on the train?
A.I wouldn't
Just not viable.

Two hours, average 70 mph?
Penrith is the best station for Keswick, plus bus

[merseymouth]

Oh to be back in 1972? Back when when you could take the train from virtually anywhere in the country to Penrith, the transfer over to the line to Keswick!
Of course it used to continue through Cockermouth, then on to join up with the coastal line from Carlisle to Whitehaven & beyond.
But even today a nice trundle from Penrith to Keswick is nice. Trouble is these days is that we always take too much cr*p with us, loads and loads of different clothes? Oh for the days when a saddlebag was sufficient for a nice weekend!
I suppose it's the modern equivelant of Parkinson's Law - Luggage Expands to fit the space available! TTFN MM

[Vorpal]

After walking and cycling, trains produce the least emissions per transport mile/passenger. Trains powered by sustainable energy are even better.

[Cyril Haearn]

Positive thread alert, +1

It is worth mentioning that train travel is exceedingly safe
In many years not a single passenger is killed in a train "accident" in the UK

[reohn2]

........BTW No.2: the cost of motoring is estimated at 45 ppm (that's the HMRC figure, not mine). The idea that motorists always look at the marginal cost and rail travel pricing is based on whole cost underpins much of what this thread is about. So that's 140 x 2 (return I presume) x 45p = £126.00. Children travel at half price less advance deduction less one third family rail card.

The thing is though owners already have the car which they use for other things too,so hopping in it is easier.

Harping back to the Crewe to NEC posts above,the journey time by train was 1hr.44mins.We live just off the M6 j23 30miles North of Crewe,despite lots of road works on the M6 our journey time by car was 4hrs total there and back.
We would've needed to first get to Crewe by car or train,then onward by train,total journey time would've been 4hrs(?) possibly more one way.
The train in this instance can't compete for convenience,speed or cost for someone who already has a car, as it wouldn't for 100%JR's journey to Keswick.