Trains...why?

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reohn2
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Re: Trains...why?

Postby reohn2 » 5 Nov 2018, 10:54am

I'm very familiar with the ripple effect idiot drivers cause
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Mick F
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Re: Trains...why?

Postby Mick F » 5 Nov 2018, 7:41pm

30miles on the bike today to Plymouth, and then came home by train.
https://greatscenicrailways.co.uk/lines ... lley-line/
Mick F. Cornwall

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100%JR
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Re: Trains...why?

Postby 100%JR » 7 Nov 2018, 8:59pm

PDQ Mobile wrote:Why trains?
Because theýre far more energy efficient and less polluting.
Most especially electric one's.

Just where do you think these Trains get their Electricity from?Like electric cars they a far from "Green" but that's something the anti-motoring types like to omit :roll:
Electricity energy efficient :lol: :lol:

kwackers
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Re: Trains...why?

Postby kwackers » 7 Nov 2018, 9:33pm

100%JR wrote:Just where do you think these Trains get their Electricity from?Like electric cars they a far from "Green" but that's something the anti-motoring types like to omit :roll:
Electricity energy efficient :lol: :lol:

In my experience most motoring types seem ignorant of how fuel gets into their cars.

They seem to have no idea how much energy is required to drill for oil and pump it.
Or how much fuel is required to ship it around the world.
Or how much energy is required to refine it. (Most refineries have their own power stations).
Or how much fuel is needed to move it around the country.
And then it's burnt in an inefficient archaic power unit.
In fact as we're forced more and more to get the 'hard' fossil fuels we're fast reaching a point we're the amount of energy required to extract the fuel is about the same as the energy content of the fuel itself. In the not too distant future we'll need renewables to power our fossil fuel economy!
(Or more likely we'll simply use the renewables to create hydrogen since it's better spent that way).
It's hard to put a genuine figure on these because oil companies keep the numbers close to their chests but some of the best guesses suggest the energy used in creating a gallon of fuel would drive an electric car a similar distance - and with a lot less of the nasty byproducts.

Electric trains genuinely are more efficient than cars, if you take into account their life cycle then they become an order of magnitude better.
Electric cars likewise better, most electric cars charge overnight when there's a surplus of electricity and there's nothing to do with it. During the day solar more than makes up for the demands of electric cars and in the future the symbiotic nature of electric cars with renewables especially their ability to charge during surplus and dump power when the grid needs it will be game changing.

It's all moot anyway, time isn't on the side of IC engined cars. Electric cars are improving far faster than IC's can, they're faster, quieter, nicer to drive and whilst your average neanderthal will miss the mighty roar of the inline four the majority of the public wont.

brynpoeth
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Re: Trains...why?

Postby brynpoeth » 7 Nov 2018, 9:35pm

Electric vehicles faster?
-1
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Cycling-of course, but it is far better on a Gillott

kwackers
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Re: Trains...why?

Postby kwackers » 7 Nov 2018, 9:46pm

brynpoeth wrote:Electric vehicles faster?
-1

Depends on which one. Actually in terms of mph most aren't but in terms of acceleration most are and mainly because you don't have to wait for all that metal to spin up.

(You have to chuck that in when mentioning their advantages to a motorhead because most think they're still milk floats.)

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RickH
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Re: Trains...why?

Postby RickH » 7 Nov 2018, 10:03pm

kwackers wrote:
brynpoeth wrote:Electric vehicles faster?
-1

Depends on which one. Actually in terms of mph most aren't but in terms of acceleration most are and mainly because you don't have to wait for all that metal to spin up.

(You have to chuck that in when mentioning their advantages to a motorhead because most think they're still milk floats.)

It a muses me to see what has been done with a 1974 Enfield 8000 using modern electric equipment -

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100%JR
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Re: Trains...why?

Postby 100%JR » 9 Nov 2018, 2:44pm

The "average" mileage between charges on an electric car is 100(Not including Tesla).
When they can do 5-600miles+ AND there are enough charge points around the UK then I'd have absolutely no problem buying one.Unfortunately that is a long way off so I'll stick with my Diesel :wink:

kwackers
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Re: Trains...why?

Postby kwackers » 9 Nov 2018, 3:36pm

100%JR wrote:The "average" mileage between charges on an electric car is 100(Not including Tesla).
When they can do 5-600miles+ AND there are enough charge points around the UK then I'd have absolutely no problem buying one.Unfortunately that is a long way off so I'll stick with my Diesel :wink:

If you want a car that can do 5-600 miles why would you be interested in average mileage?
I don't buy a petrol car based on the average mileage of petrol cars - that would be daft.

There are quite a few out there now with 2-300 mile ranges that are not Tesla. In another year or two most models will do 200+ miles and quite a few 300+.

IMO 5-600 miles range is daft (but doable). Assuming you had empty motorway that's several hours of driving which without a break which is frankly reckless and if you crashed and killed someone it's quite likely you'd be spending time at her majesty's pleasure if it became known you'd driven that long without a break.
So even in your case 300 miles and then a break whilst the car charges is probably good enough.

But again, it's still early days. Battery capacity goes up year on year and the places you can use your diesel get less.
At some point it will be a no brainer.

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Re: Trains...why?

Postby PDQ Mobile » 9 Nov 2018, 6:39pm

100%JR wrote:
PDQ Mobile wrote:Why trains?
Because theýre far more energy efficient and less polluting.
Most especially electric one's.

Just where do you think these Trains get their Electricity from?Like electric cars they a far from "Green" but that's something the anti-motoring types like to omit :roll:
Electricity energy efficient :lol: :lol:


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_locomotive
Ah, but they are and profoundly so in comparison to road transport.

Electric train motor can be 90% efficient!
90%!

Electicity is arguably best at driving hogh torque motors, far better than just as a heat generator.

Then throw in some renewable generated leccy and the ability to use multiple power sources. Plenty of wind power out there tonight.
((wind generating 29.9 ofvthe UK's Friday night demand- it's pretty much twice as much as nuclear))

Then there's the ability to put some braking regenerated energy back into the system, no emmissions in city centres and stations, speed of acceleration (quite breathtaking sometimes) and electric trains are a no brainer.

Just the infrastructure is initially expensive.
We have been incredibly slow here in the UK to see all this and we will regret it.

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100%JR
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Re: Trains...why?

Postby 100%JR » 10 Nov 2018, 1:47am

kwackers wrote:So even in your case 300 miles and then a break whilst the car charges is probably good enough.
At some point it will be a no brainer.

I disagree.
I drive to the South of France every year.Sheffield to Frejus(Cote d’Azur)is usually around 16-17 hours including Ferry,fuel and stops.I stop for nap two or 3 times every 3-400miles depending on how I feel and fuel up once within one of these stops.They are usually 20-30mins.I’m sure an electric car would need longer than that to charge? Having to stop every 2-300 miles,especially if I didn’t want to,would be a PITA and having to wait for it to charge more so.
We also go to Devon/Cornwall,Fort William etc,all easily doable in one go and all on less than one tank.Having to stop and charge a car on those journeys would make them tedious.I do 12-15,000 a year and I want to fill up as litte as possible.So 5-600 miles is about right.I’ve got better things to do than wait for a car to charge,especially when it would eat into my holiday or “me” time in general.
A no brainer at some point maybe but I doubt it will be in my lifetime.
If an affordable large electric car that can do 500+ miles on a charge,charges in 15 minutes and can cruise at 80-90mph comes along I’d seriously have a look into it!

kwackers
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Re: Trains...why?

Postby kwackers » 10 Nov 2018, 6:06am

100%JR wrote:A no brainer at some point maybe but I doubt it will be in my lifetime.
If an affordable large electric car that can do 500+ miles on a charge,charges in 15 minutes and can cruise at 80-90mph comes along I’d seriously have a look into it!

So in your use case above why if it has a range of 500+ miles does it need to charge in 15 minutes?

You're stopping 2 or 3 times every 3-400 miles for 20-30 mins, so your car would get a minimum of 40 and a maximum of 120 mins charging.
Two 20 minute charges will add 200 miles to one of the newer electric cars - so it's only just outside of letting you do what you want - assuming worst case and best case it's well within.

Average capacity of batteries has more than doubled in the last 10 years and we're starting to see a lot of money poured into research so unless you're expecting to depart this world fairly shortly I doubt a suitable car won't happen in your lifetime, particularly if you're actually realistic about how you'd use it.
(We may even move to hydrogen as the power source for our e-cars in which case you could have what you want immediately. It's not as efficient at storing and using electricity and there are still technical challenges but who knows.)

Another point is how often you make your long journeys. A lot of the people I know with electric cars bought them as their second one which due to the low cost of running rapidly becomes their normal runabout with the 'main' car living on the drive. Perhaps this is a model that would work for you?

The other thing to consider is as electric cars become the norm then whilst there'll be a handful of naysayers hanging on to their IC cars there won't be enough to ensure the fuel distribution network we currently have.

You'll probably need an app to tell you where the petrol stations are because most are hanging on by the skin of their teeth as is and rely on you buying other stuff from the shop to continue in their existence so it won't take much before we start to see whole sale closures and probably conversion to fast charging points for e-cars plus the inevitable price hikes as economy of scale is lost.
(I did ponder HGV's as despite Tesla's best efforts they'll be some of the last vehicles to go electric, but I reckon most distribution centres will hold their own fuel or there'll be the odd HGV refuelling centre but whether they'll consider it worthwhile holding domestic fuel too is debatable)

IMO there's no doubt that the switch to an e-car economy will happen very quickly once the tipping point is reached and as likely there'll be winners and losers and the losers will have to adapt.
I honestly think that day isn't that far away all that's required is price parity which will happen in the next couple of years and by that time the second hand market will have a good supply of cheaper used e-cars and folk will have started to work on the reconditioned battery market too with small garages popping up to service the needs of e-cars.

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Cugel
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Re: Trains...why?

Postby Cugel » 10 Nov 2018, 9:32am

brynpoeth wrote:Electric vehicles faster?
-1


How about this one? The son-in-law has just acquired one as part of his status as a high-earning City type - something to do with constructing tax-avoidance plans for greedymen I believe. He is a very nice chap but lives in a different world where these sort of things (mad cars and tax avoidance) are a norm.

https://www.tesla.com/en_GB/models

Note the acceleration figure for the top model (his firm wouldn't buy anything else). What is the practical purpose of 0-60 in a couple of seconds? Is it James Bond device to break the neck of the assassin sitting in the back of your car with his gun?

I dread to think how much it costs to make one of these things. I dread to think what the roads will be like f they fill with near-silent motorised knives being flung about at the accelerations and speeds these are capable of, especially in semi-auto mode, as the "drivers" gaze at their large screen or prattle about "business" into their Bluetooth thingy.

Cugel

kwackers
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Re: Trains...why?

Postby kwackers » 10 Nov 2018, 9:48am

Cugel wrote:What is the practical purpose of 0-60 in a couple of seconds? Is it James Bond device to break the neck of the assassin sitting in the back of your car with his gun?

The practical purpose was for Tesla to sell the idea of a milk float to a V8 loving public.
Top end Tesla's cost the same as Ferrari's and other 'sports' vehicles.

Having won over a fair chunk of petrol heads and gotten the idea that electric cars aren't really milk floats most folk will now wonder off and buy something they can afford with respectable if not neck breaking performance.

pwa
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Re: Trains...why?

Postby pwa » 10 Nov 2018, 9:51am

kwackers wrote:
Cugel wrote:What is the practical purpose of 0-60 in a couple of seconds? Is it James Bond device to break the neck of the assassin sitting in the back of your car with his gun?

The practical purpose was for Tesla to sell the idea of a milk float to a V8 loving public.
Top end Tesla's cost the same as Ferrari's and other 'sports' vehicles.

Having won over a fair chunk of petrol heads and gotten the idea that electric cars aren't really milk floats most folk will now wonder off and buy something they can afford with respectable if not neck breaking performance.

Or one of the Aston Martin electric cars soon to be made a few miles down the road from me.