Trains...why?

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reohn2
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Re: Trains...why?

Postby reohn2 » 17 Oct 2018, 12:54pm

mjr wrote:
reohn2 wrote:It should reliable across the country and the same price per mile where ever with an off peak rate and reduced rate for the retired and infirm.
Currently commuters into the capital and other major cities are being held to ransom and [...]

Currently pricing is one tool used to try to limit overcrowding. If it was a same price per mile but varying by peak/off-peak, how would you limit London commuter overcrowding without penalising commuters travelling the same distance into cities with quieter trains? How do countries with per-mile pricing do that?

The service doesn't serve the people who use it,one alternative is to build elsewhere whilst we have the chance,another is to build more railways where they're needed.
IMO,and I'm no expert,but the UK seems hell bent keep trying to fit a quart into a pint pot with regards to London,I seems the same thing now happening in Manchester,and all under a banner of austerity.

One thing from abroad that I would like to see is more and more reasonably-priced day tickets for semi-fast services in an area - I think these are called "rangers" in the UK, but there aren't many. In Germany, the Land Tickets cover the whole country, state-by-state, plus there's an off-peak all-Germany day ranger (Quer-durchs-Land-Ticket) and a weekend one (the Happy Weekend) which effectively impose a fare cap for semi-fast services of about €70 for up to 5 people. Their Regional Expresses aren't intercity-spec but are often like the best UK local trains - as well as the locomotive-hauled ones, some are currently operated by Coradias (a sibling of the trains on the Manchester-Wales services) and some by Flirts (coming soon to the Norwich/Ipswich/Stansted lines).

I can't comment on trains in Europe only to say the ones I've travelled on in Italy,Spain and Portugal seemed a much cheaper and more peasent experience than the UK.That said I'm an infrequent all user these days and my comments are based on the media and what family members tell me
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paddler
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Re: Trains...why?

Postby paddler » 17 Oct 2018, 1:05pm

brynpoeth wrote:
mjr wrote:
paddler wrote:Four of us caught the train from Tyndrum Lower to Oban last Saturday. We were surprised to find the price was £17.80 return! Seems a tad expensive for an hours journey. No complaints whatsoever about the train or the conductors though. But how much cheaper it would have been to drive and park for the day, divided between the four of us - which, to be fair, if we had bothered to enquire about the charges before we left, we would probably have done.

If you were travelling together both ways, I hope you bought a four-person "groupsave" ticket for £11.87 each and didn't pay 4 lots of £17.80.

Driving in an average car would be about £13 in fuel (according to Via Michelin), plus 2 hours driving so allow £20 living wage (unless someone's work is worthless), plus car parking is about 75p/hour (50p/hour at the station but I'm not sure if it's restricted to passengers - according to Parkopedia) unless you find one of the free spaces. So that's £8.25 each plus about 20p/hour. Personally, I'd probably pay that £3 more for the upgrade to extra legroom, better lighting and bigger windows.

Not to mention the chance to admire the Bens and Glens much better from the train


The views were the reason we took it. And for that, it was a success. The fares didn't work in our favour as it was an off-the -cuff decision - we were staying right next door at the By-The-Way Hostel and just hopped on the train. The conductor could see we were together but didn't offer a group rate. Live and learn.

Dave

reohn2
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Re: Trains...why?

Postby reohn2 » 17 Oct 2018, 1:11pm

mjr wrote:
reohn2 wrote:
mjr wrote:To a degree, m'lud, but I understand that motoring can also get pretty expensive pretty quickly if you don't buy a Car Card, sorry Vehicle Excise Duty, and Advance Fuel.

But once the car has been bought and ancilliary expenses paid,the convenience of using it overrides the inconvenience of public transport then people will use the least line of resistance.

Once a subscription card has been bought, the convenience of using public transport overrides the inconvenience of driving unless you're in denial about the incremental costs like most of the UK population seems to be. I think that deeply-entrenched denial is why so many whine about fuel prices and still-below-cost parking rental charges, or even protest against road tolls - and again and again, bad behaviour gets rewarded by short-sighted national and local governments.

I can't argue with any of that only to say that people once locked into car ownership bad public transport will complain about increased costs.
Tomorrow we're off the NEC in Birmingham and whilst I'm not looking forward to the drive there it's a 99% chance it'll be quicker and cheaper than any form of public transport.

I'm not sure about that. I think people now believe in the convenience of the car partly because there's been a lot of marketing money pushing it for so long (adverts showing carefree motoring through deserted streets, or happily driving distracted by music while sat in a faux jam that is still mysteriously moving somehow) and so many reinforcing feedbacks from believers writing in newspapers and so on, whereas support for the car's competitors has often been half-hearted and intermittent - so I suspect even if we suddenly had excellent public transport and made taking a car into a city to require one to pay quite huge realistic costs, many motorists would protest, threaten and look for loopholes, rather than use any offered alternatives.

Whilst I agree about the marketing of the car,it needs making inconvenient for journeis into large towns and cities whilst at the same time public transport made convenient for both long and shorter journeys.As I posted previously there's a lack of an holistic approach to individual travel in the UK,frankly it seems we're miles behind other European countries,public transport being just one aspect.
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reohn2
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Re: Trains...why?

Postby reohn2 » 17 Oct 2018, 1:14pm

paddler wrote:
The views were the reason we took it. And for that, it was a success. The fares didn't work in our favour as it was an off-the -cuff decision - we were staying right next door at the By-The-Way Hostel and just hopped on the train. The conductor could see we were together but didn't offer a group rate. Live and learn.

Dave


Yet another example of a run for profit system not serving the public
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brynpoeth
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Re: Trains...why?

Postby brynpoeth » 17 Oct 2018, 1:17pm

The NEC has a train station with very good services, might be worth checking for last-minute fares
From Crewe to Birmingham/NEC would probably be faster than one is allowed to drive :wink:
..
I gladly take the train even if it costs more than motor fuel for the journey or takes longer
I am rich enough to choose, so are most of us I think
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brynpoeth
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Re: Trains...why?

Postby brynpoeth » 17 Oct 2018, 1:21pm

reohn2 wrote:
paddler wrote:
The views were the reason we took it. And for that, it was a success. The fares didn't work in our favour as it was an off-the -cuff decision - we were staying right next door at the By-The-Way Hostel and just hopped on the train. The conductor could see we were together but didn't offer a group rate. Live and learn.

Dave


Yet another example of a run for profit system not serving the public

In BR days ticket clerks were obliged to offer the cheapest ticket
It is more complicated now but with a smartphone one has Perfect Knowledge, one is obliged to think a bit too, +1 :wink:
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kwackers
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Re: Trains...why?

Postby kwackers » 17 Oct 2018, 1:29pm

brynpoeth wrote:In BR days ticket clerks were obliged to offer the cheapest ticket
It is more complicated now but with a smartphone one has Perfect Knowledge, one is obliged to think a bit too, +1 :wink:

I went online to book a ticket a month or so ago, according to the train operator the trains weren't running direct. Alternative websites had different trains, some cost £25 (should be £8.50).
So there was no consensus on the times, prices, stops or even whether the trains were running.
Stayed like that for the best part of a week. (Trains were running normally just nobody seemed to know).

Perfect knowledge? Definitely not, but it did make me think... :lol:

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mjr
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Re: Trains...why?

Postby mjr » 17 Oct 2018, 1:49pm

brynpoeth wrote:In BR days ticket clerks were obliged to offer the cheapest ticket
It is more complicated now but with a smartphone one has Perfect Knowledge, one is obliged to think a bit too, +1 :wink:

Station ticket clerks, yes, but were conductors? I'm honestly not sure. I know that a frequent complaint years ago in Bristol was that on-train staff couldn't actually sell some of the cheapest day ranger tickets - but they did let you travel without a ticket (or maybe with a permit-to-travel - I think it was that long ago, when you could still buy one) to the nearest station which could. That shouldn't be a problem with on-train ticket-issuing computers now. I think they don't because it's very unlikely they'll get penalised for not offering the cheapest because if you knew about the ticket, you'd ask for it, unless you're one of the very rare mystery shoppers. And if challenged, they could say that they thought you were together, but weren't sure, or maybe that they didn't know that you'd be returning together (group tickets aren't valid unless you do).

kwackers wrote:I went online to book a ticket a month or so ago, according to the train operator the trains weren't running direct. Alternative websites had different trains, some cost £25 (should be £8.50).
So there was no consensus on the times, prices, stops or even whether the trains were running.
Stayed like that for the best part of a week. (Trains were running normally just nobody seemed to know).

Perfect knowledge? Definitely not, but it did make me think... :lol:

That's probably because some of the train companies - the previously-mentioned Northern among them - have made a complete mess of their new timetables this year. It's really not good and I don't really understand why the regulator hasn't stepped in or why the minister who claimed responsibility hasn't sacked either whoever's to blame or himself. However, transport seems to immune from accountability: a new A road on the edge of Norwich was 6 years late, nearly 100% over budget, delivered with substandard incomplete cycleways and messed up existing cycle routes for years.
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reohn2
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Re: Trains...why?

Postby reohn2 » 17 Oct 2018, 1:54pm

brynpoeth wrote:The NEC has a train station with very good services, might be worth checking for last-minute fares
From Crewe to Birmingham/NEC would probably be faster than one is allowed to drive :wink:
..
I gladly take the train even if it costs more than motor fuel for the journey or takes longer
I am rich enough to choose, so are most of us I think

Just checked the prices and journey times.
From Crewe to NEC return cost standard ticket £57 that's £114 for myself and Mrs R2,journey time is 1hr 15mins one way and 1hr 45mins the other.
It should be a lot less than an hour in the car,and even with all running costs of the car won't cost anywhere near £114.

EDIT:- just realised that was off peak tickets and we'd need to travel at peak times(going to an exhibition opening time 10am to 6pm),so heaven knows how much extra that would be :shock:
Last edited by reohn2 on 17 Oct 2018, 2:07pm, edited 2 times in total.
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brynpoeth
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Re: Trains...why?

Postby brynpoeth » 17 Oct 2018, 1:57pm

I always buy a ticket but on many trips involving several trains it is not checked once. It is worth having ones ticket ready for the conductor/guard/customer care executive and being nice to them because their job is often difficult, one explained that he did not have much trouble because he is big, ugly and has short hair :?

Had a queer experience on the way from Peterborough to Birmingham, the automatic announcement was wrong, the "next station" was the one we had just left. Very bad for strangers who might rely on it
Hearing the familiar Birmingham accent and smelling the chips at New Street made up for that :wink:
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brynpoeth
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Re: Trains...why?

Postby brynpoeth » 17 Oct 2018, 2:05pm

reohn2 wrote:
brynpoeth wrote:The NEC has a train station with very good services, might be worth checking for last-minute fares
From Crewe to Birmingham/NEC would probably be faster than one is allowed to drive :wink:
..
I gladly take the train even if it costs more than motor fuel for the journey or takes longer
I am rich enough to choose, so are most of us I think

Just checked the prices and journey times.
From Crewe to NEC return cost standard ticket £57 that's £114 for myself and Mrs R2,journey time is 1hr 15mins one way and 1hr 45mins the other.
It should be a lot less than an hour in the car,and even with all running costs of the car won't cost anywhere near £114.

Might be worth checking earlier or later services or other operators, there are plenty of trains on that route, do you get senior discount?

Advance booking can be very cheap and many journeys can be planned
Entertainer, kidult, curmudgeon
Cycling-of course, but it is far better on a Gillott
We love safety cameras, we love life "597"

reohn2
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Re: Trains...why?

Postby reohn2 » 17 Oct 2018, 2:08pm

brynpoeth wrote:
reohn2 wrote:
brynpoeth wrote:The NEC has a train station with very good services, might be worth checking for last-minute fares
From Crewe to Birmingham/NEC would probably be faster than one is allowed to drive :wink:
..
I gladly take the train even if it costs more than motor fuel for the journey or takes longer
I am rich enough to choose, so are most of us I think

Just checked the prices and journey times.
From Crewe to NEC return cost standard ticket £57 that's £114 for myself and Mrs R2,journey time is 1hr 15mins one way and 1hr 45mins the other.
It should be a lot less than an hour in the car,and even with all running costs of the car won't cost anywhere near £114.

Might be worth checking earlier or later services or other operators, there are plenty of trains on that route, do you get senior discount?

Advance booking can be very cheap and many journeys can be planned

Yes we would qualify for senior disc' but See my EDIT.

BTW this is my point hilighted up threadbare there shouldn't be different companies charging differing rates,there should be a standard rate per mile with a slight premium for peak times,that way everyone knows the cost.
Last edited by reohn2 on 17 Oct 2018, 2:15pm, edited 2 times in total.
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brynpoeth
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Re: Trains...why?

Postby brynpoeth » 17 Oct 2018, 2:12pm

Penmaenmawr has a station, request stop, gaps between trains of two hours or more

But the train is really fast, especially if the driver forgets to stop at Abergele & Pensarn :(

Buses to Bangor & Conwy run four times an hour, change by Spoons Llandudno to go to Colwyn Bay, much slower, lots of stops, and much cheaper, that is how it should be
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mjr
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Re: Trains...why?

Postby mjr » 17 Oct 2018, 2:13pm

reohn2 wrote:Just checked the prices and journey times.
From Crewe to NEC return cost standard ticket £57 that's £114 for myself and Mrs R2,journey time is 1hr 15mins one way and 1hr 45mins the other.
It should be a lot less than an hour in the car,and even with all running costs of the car won't cost anywhere near £114.

Do you have to be there early then? Outbound 10:01 – 11:13 returning any train would be £29.10 off-peak return, so £38.80 for yourself and Mrs R2 (assuming a railcard).

Assuming you're wanting to be there 9am (hence the high train fares), Via Michelin forecasts driving will take 1h50, or you can save half an hour by paying £6.40 more to use the toll road. (Edit: not sure how it's "a lot less than an hour" driving legally... even the overoptimistic Google reckons 1h10 in the dead of night.) Fuel will cost about £17 return, I think NEC parking is over £5 a day now and then there's 3 hours driving so £30 - so maybe £60, so yes, it's cheaper but no faster and only if travelling at peak times.
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reohn2
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Re: Trains...why?

Postby reohn2 » 17 Oct 2018, 2:16pm

mjr wrote:
reohn2 wrote:Just checked the prices and journey times.
From Crewe to NEC return cost standard ticket £57 that's £114 for myself and Mrs R2,journey time is 1hr 15mins one way and 1hr 45mins the other.
It should be a lot less than an hour in the car,and even with all running costs of the car won't cost anywhere near £114.

Do you have to be there early then? Outbound 10:01 – 11:13 returning any train would be £29.10 off-peak return, so £38.80 for yourself and Mrs R2 (assuming a railcard).

Assuming you're wanting to be there 9am (hence the high train fares), Via Michelin forecasts it'll take 1h50, or you can save half an hour by paying £6.40 more to use the toll road. Fuel will cost about £17 return, I think NEC parking is over £5 a day now and then there's 3 hours driving so £30 - so maybe £60, so yes, it's cheaper but no faster and only if travelling at peak times.


Yes we do need to be there by 10am to see the whole exibition,return isnt such a problem but as the exibition closes at 6pm that means we'd be travelling at peak time anyway.
As an infrequent rail user I don't know my way around the system,so there most likely are cheaper tickets,though it proves what I'm bleating on about in that the system is a broken one when many (known by some)hoops need jumping through to save money on tickets.
As for car travel,my car does 50mpg so say £15 for fuel,last year parking was free included in the ticket cost.
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