Electric cars

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brynpoeth
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Re: Electric cars

Postby brynpoeth » 28 Oct 2018, 8:48pm

I though segways had died out
The cops are not wearing h*****s :wink
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kwackers
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Re: Electric cars

Postby kwackers » 28 Oct 2018, 8:52pm

horizon wrote:You can see where I and others are coming from without feeling you have to defend electric cars. But I suppose on a cycling forum this thread was inevitably going to elicit some more fundamental response from members.

A world with no cars? Yeah why not.

That's not my point though, people aren't simply going to stop using cars. If electric cars aren't a thing then expect every drop of oil to be sucked out of the ground and millions spent on creating fuel from plants or enzyme processes.

Personally I prefer electric cars, ymmv.

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Cunobelin
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Re: Electric cars

Postby Cunobelin » 28 Oct 2018, 9:29pm

brynpoeth wrote:I though segways had died out
The cops are not wearing h*****s :wink



No-one does.

It was amazing to see so many people just riding bikes, scooters and Segways with no concerns and no H*****s


Over a week I think I saw one or two

In fact Portugal shelved a compulsion law last year after listening to public opinion on the matter

amaferanga
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Re: Electric cars

Postby amaferanga » 29 Oct 2018, 8:31am

I'm an electric car owner and one of the main reasons for that is because when I'm cycling or walking (or driving) around I'd much, much rather be surrounded by electric cars with zero tailpipe emissions than a noisy rabble of petrol and diesel cars churning out fumes that poison the air. I still cycle and walk as much as possible though as I still think we all need to massively reduce our dependence on cars of any type.

If course, there's some compromises as well as many positives of owning an electric car.

Some positives:

1) currently very cheap to run. There's still a lot of free or very cheap public charging so I'd estimate my "fuel" costs per month for around 1000 miles/month is about £20. This compares with about £120 when I had a diesel Saab.

2) really pleasant to drive. No engine noise obviously, no gear changes. Just really smooth and peaceful.

3) pre-heat means the car can be warm inside and screen defrosted before you get into it in the morning.

4) cheap servicing and very little to go wrong, unlike ICE with their timing belts, clutches, gear boxes, etc. that often lead to big repair bills. The evidence would also suggest that battery degradation isn't the problem that those with a vested interest in selling ICE and oil claim it will be. There are plenty of big mileage Tesla and Leafs out there doing just fine. And if/when the batteries are no longer up to it they can be repurposed for home storage alongside solar panels.


Some compromises:

1) I only get at most around 160 miles (Hyundai Ioniq Electric). I used to say I'd wait until real world range was at least 200 miles before switching, but the public rapid charger network is just about widespread enough now to make most longer journeys doable. Its not perfect, but it is getting better all the time. Most of my trips are within range anyway, it's only work trips up to Barrow from near Manchester and trips to Scotland where I need to public charge. I use other public charging locally though because its free or very cheap. Most days I'll start off with a full battery from charging up at home. A rapid charge stop is around 20 to 30 minutes so long enough for a coffee and a nice break after a couple of hours of driving anyway.

2) Cost. Electric cars still cost more to buy than equivalent ICE partly because they're in short supply. That's probably partly down to manufacturers limiting supply because they can make much more profit on legacy diesel "technology". For example, my car has only sold in very limited numbers due to absurdly long waiting times when it was new. Hyundai have recently launched the Kona Electric which very nearly has a 300 mile real world range(for around £30k), but the waiting time if you were to order now is over 6 months. If you want the equivalent ICE you'll probably have it in a month or two. Even used Nissan Leafs are still >£8k for battery owned models which is just too much compared to an equivalent ICE model. When you factor in running costs though, EVs become much more competitive.

3) Charing infrastructure is getting better, but unless you have a driveway so you can charge at home it'd be difficult to own an EV. Some people do get by with only public charging, but it really does depend where you live as to how reliable and accessible that public charging is.


So owning an EV will mean some compromises. Its disappointing how few people are prepared to consider compromising a little and instead carry on driving diesels in cities and probably convince themselves that the poor air quality and toxic air is because of everyone else. They also probably still think they're okay in their car, oblivious to the fact that the air inside the car is even more toxic and harmful, it just doesn't smell bad like the air cyclists and pedestrians are forced to breath.

Of course the best solution to our toxic air would be massive investment in public transport and walking and cycling infrastructure, but for the latter Greater Manchester is showing just how slowly that infrastructure will be built even if there is the will. The ambitious Beelines plan won't have fundamentally changed the way people travel within a decade so we can't just trundle along as we are now and allow dirty ICE vehicles to poison the air. Steps are needed immediately to reduce emissions from vehicles and as we all know the real world emissions from even Euro VI diesels bear little resemblance to those they're tested for so "clean" diesels aren't the solution (because they don't exist).

On the subject of hybrids and plug-in hybrids its really disappointing to see manufacturers like Toyota and Lexus deliberately misleading people with their "self charging hybrid" nonsense. These are ICE cars and not a solution to anything. They were innovative 15 years ago, but they are not the future, yet people buy them thinking they're being green. And unfortunately for plug-ins, the electric range is being determined by BIK rates which is why manufacturers are selling these cars with only 10 or 20 mile electric range. Vauxhall made a car 10 years ago with a real world range of up to 50 miles (the Ampera) which remains one of the best plug-ins made. That sort of electric range allows most people to do the majority of their daily miles all electric, without any worries about longer trips. Yet the likes of BMW and VW are still trotting out plug-ins that only do 10 miles.

We should be emulating what Norway has achieved, but unfortunately being British we just blame everyone but ourselves as we slowly turn our towns and cities into crapper and dirtier places to live.

amaferanga
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Re: Electric cars

Postby amaferanga » 29 Oct 2018, 8:35am

Here's a map showing the current public charging network:

https://www.zap-map.com


Not perfect, a bit sparse in some places, but I bet there's more than most people realise.

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squeaker
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Re: Electric cars

Postby squeaker » 29 Oct 2018, 10:37am

Cugel wrote:I read an interesting article (can't find it now) making the argument that a number of technological and economic factors will radically change personal transport perhaps within the next ten years. The core proposals were that electric self-driving cars hired out in uber style will become the ubiquitous norm; personal ownership of a car will become defunct because it's ridiculously costly; shared-hired cars will provide journeys shared by more than one passenger per trip; the cars will mostly be working, not parked; the roads will consequently have less overall traffic, far fewer parked cars and much greater safety.
This youtube video might be relevant (although rather long)?
"42"

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horizon
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Re: Electric cars

Postby horizon » 29 Oct 2018, 10:48am

kwackers wrote:
horizon wrote:You can see where I and others are coming from without feeling you have to defend electric cars. But I suppose on a cycling forum this thread was inevitably going to elicit some more fundamental response from members.

A world with no cars? Yeah why not.

That's not my point though,

Personally I prefer electric cars, ymmv.


Nor mine. Fewer cars, less road building, less town centre parking. And if those cars are electric then even better. I really post on a thread like this to remind us that electric cars are better but not a panacea (which I'm sure you do agree with :wink: ).
I have two doctors, my left leg and my right leg. (G. M. Trevelyan)
PS I always wondered why the YHA HQ was called Trevelyan House. :)

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al_yrpal
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Re: Electric cars

Postby al_yrpal » 29 Oct 2018, 10:52am

Amerferanga, great post. Thank you, nice to hear real world experiences and good advice. My next vehicle is going to be an electric job. The old Camper will be kept for the longer journeys.

Al
Touring on a bicycle is a great way to explore and appreciate the countryside and towns you pass through. CTC gone but not forgotten!

kwackers
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Re: Electric cars

Postby kwackers » 29 Oct 2018, 11:02am

horizon wrote:Nor mine. Fewer cars, less road building, less town centre parking. And if those cars are electric then even better. I really post on a thread like this to remind us that electric cars are better but not a panacea (which I'm sure you do agree with :wink: ).

In my ideal world view there are no cars, just parks, bicycles, people walking enjoying the scenery without their face buried in a mobile and possibly a fast but hidden electric transport system which is like a monorail but a bit more hidden and drops you off in the park to enjoy it - in fact I'm pretty sure there have been illustrations of such a reality dating back to the 50's. :lol:

Here's how my brain works though:
I'm a veggie, in my view there is no reason or excuse to eat animals. They don't exist as food stuffs for us and we shouldn't eat them just because we like the way they taste.
Now on the rare occasion I'm asked why I'm a veggie or what I think the future holds then my answer is that I simply think people should eat less meat - a viewpoint that's a mile away from what I really think.
IMO there's no point telling people that I think they should go full on veggie and rant about how we treat animals etc because they'll turn off, run a mile and at best do nothing.
OTOH you'll struggle to find anyone who doesn't think we should eat less meat and thus you'll strike a chord and who knows, perhaps they'll decide on that cheese sandwich instead of ham next time they buy one.

This is all a long winded way of saying you have to give people realistic alternatives otherwise nothing will change. Perhaps in 100 years the whole world will be vegan but it won't have gotten there because a handful of 'fruit cakes' made unrealistic demands.

Slow but sure is the way forward and for me that means electric cars, followed by self driving cars, followed by the reduction and eventual loss of manually operated cars and the ultimate reduction in car ownership that will happen because of it.

Baby steps moves us all to the final destination.

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horizon
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Re: Electric cars

Postby horizon » 30 Oct 2018, 7:31pm

kwackers: thanks for that - I agree with what you are saying. My first steps (small, incremental, as you suggest) would be less parking and less road capacity. I want to ask buyers of electric cars where they will park when not at home. But, yes, better electric than petrol or diesel. The fuel tax escalator has been frozen again - that for me wipes out any (some of the?) advantage of electric cars. But I accept your principle.
I have two doctors, my left leg and my right leg. (G. M. Trevelyan)
PS I always wondered why the YHA HQ was called Trevelyan House. :)

brynpoeth
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Re: Electric cars

Postby brynpoeth » 30 Oct 2018, 7:35pm

I would be good if newer vehicles were smaller

Many vehicles have three parking places, one a home, one at work, one at the shops :(
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al_yrpal
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Re: Electric cars

Postby al_yrpal » 2 Nov 2018, 10:26am

'What Car' magazine have a series of articles in the December issue on Electric Cars. They like the new Nissan Leaf and the Hyundai Kona and there is a comparison article. These vehicles still seem to have the status of city cars or local runabouts partly because of the problem of so few charging points. Lots of new models planned in the next couple of years.

Al
Touring on a bicycle is a great way to explore and appreciate the countryside and towns you pass through. CTC gone but not forgotten!

amaferanga
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Re: Electric cars

Postby amaferanga » 2 Nov 2018, 5:42pm

al_yrpal wrote:'What Car' magazine have a series of articles in the December issue on Electric Cars. They like the new Nissan Leaf and the Hyundai Kona and there is a comparison article. These vehicles still seem to have the status of city cars or local runabouts partly because of the problem of so few charging points. Lots of new models planned in the next couple of years.

Al


I'm not sure how a car that can do more than 150 miles on a charge (Leaf 40) or almost 300 miles (Kona) could be called a city car!

Of course we need more (and more reliable) rapid charging, but those cars (and the Ioniq that I have) most certainly aren't just city cars. Quite why anyone would need a car just to drive around a city is a little curious anyway. My household only has an EV, yet we can and do go anywhere we want/need to go. Only doing 150 miles on a charge is much less of a problem than you'd think.

Its worth remembering that there are many groups and influencal individuals with a vested interest in encouraging the sales of ICE and discouraging EV adoption so I wouldn't believe much of what's written about EVs.

softlips
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Re: Electric cars

Postby softlips » 2 Nov 2018, 5:52pm

horizon wrote:kwackers: thanks for that - I agree with what you are saying. My first steps (small, incremental, as you suggest) would be less parking and less road capacity. I want to ask buyers of electric cars where they will park when not at home. But, yes, better electric than petrol or diesel. The fuel tax escalator has been frozen again - that for me wipes out any (some of the?) advantage of electric cars. But I accept your principle.



I have a hybrid BMW 330e, the BIK Tax is almost £300 less per month than my previous car and I’m using much less fuel. As I pay for private use this is a big saving each month.

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661-Pete
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Re: Electric cars

Postby 661-Pete » 10 Nov 2018, 1:43pm

A further development regarding hybrid cars.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-46152853

What does this say about the whole enterprise? I know that, with my present car use, neither a hybrid nor an all-electric would work for me. The former would save little or nothing on my long motorway runs, and the latter wouldn't have the range - besides there being a lack of recharge points.

It appears that others have got it wrong too.

I'm still waiting. We need a solution, somehow.
Suppose that this room is a lift. The support breaks and down we go with ever-increasing velocity.
Let us pass the time by performing physical experiments...
--- Arthur Eddington (creator of the Eddington Number).