Electric cars

[NATURAL ANKLING]

Hi,
Probably your best post so far ..........even if you are just quoting some

[meic]

even if they do stand parked 95% of the time and carry only one person when they do actually go somewhere.

In more than one location though and containing things that are needed in more than one location.
My house spends 100% of its time in one location, full of stuff being used by me. The car isnt about transporting one or more people from A to B and nothing else. A bike could do that.

[Cugel]

Hi,
Probably your best post so far ..........even if you are just quoting some

I'm not sure that the schema you employ for awarding post-points is one I'd see as valid, though but. I have noticed that your judgement criteria as you've applied them to the content of your own posts are somewhat .... different.

As to "...just quoting some[one else]" ... you do realise that this is what all of us do 99.999999% of the time, doncha? Or did you imagine that your dreamt up all those words and ideas by yourself, from thin air?

Cugel

[Cyril Haearn]

Most? There is plenty of churn in the labour market, problem is, travelling long distances every day by car or train is far too attractive and cheap
I try to live my dream. Once lived so near work I could not cycle there, took three minutes to walk Another time, eleven minutes, not worth cycling

Yeah, I would say most - certainly for the sorts of people I know or live by.
Family next door is 3 generations, 11 people live there - I'm pretty certain they don't all work at the same place - which begs the question is that more efficient than them living in separate houses nearer work? (And presumably still driving to see each other).

But most folk I know are either a working couple, or a working couple plus kids still at home and working.

I think the idea that folk can simply live near work is unrealistic in the extreme. Do brickies move house every time they start building a new one? Is there mass migration every time a new Ikea store opens? Do I really have to live in a city centre? What about contract workers?
I reckon over my working life an average job last 5 years, no way I'd move every 5 years - and what about my partner? Where is she going to work?

No, folk need to travel for work. The days when everyone local worked in the same factory are long gone.
The solution is decent public transport underwritten and run by government.

11 working people in one dwelling? I bet they pay a lot of tax
I think your solution, more/better public transport, would make things even worse, I think instead commuting, especially driving, should be made less attractive (alternative facts welcome)
If one questioned people travelling daily between Liverpool and Manchester one would find thousands who could swap, or Warrington and Wigan &c. If they swapped fewer seats would be needed, shorter trains could run at the same frequency as now

Trouble is, travelling vast distances is too attractive and cheap. Better public transport is not the solution, motoring must be made less attractive

Travelling uses resources and huge amounts of time, sure one may read, work, sleep, eat on the train, but I would take a job near home, no travel costs, might even be better off

Builders and drain cleaners may have to travel but plenty do not

[kwackers]

Trouble is, travelling vast distances is too attractive and cheap. Better public transport is not the solution, motoring must be made less attractive

Nope, not with you at all.

I think about the people around me, shop workers, taxi drivers, bus drivers, drain cleaners, solicitors, sheet metal workers, computer programmers, analysts, MP, network specialists, nursery workers, teachers, physics professors, doctors, nurses, consultants - I could go on and on and on.

One thing I'm pretty certain is that we couldn't construct a local area within a walk or cycle for all of them, they may as well simply put their trades up on their own front doors - and folk would still need to come and visit them!
Or perhaps you're thinking we build estates for solicitors and perhaps over there is where all of the bicycle repair men live and that estate there is just for ambulance drivers. And presumably if they marry someone out of their profession then one of them has to give up work? But their clients still have to get to them. Moving the service provider doesn't mean the clients move with them.

Perhaps in your Utopian view nobody works as a solicitor or sheet metal worker. We're all just subsidence farming and the only travel we do is to the market to sell our pigs on Fridays...

I'd actually be interested in knowing how you see a world where nobody travels. IMO the population is too large and skill sets too specialised to go back to some idealistic but short and hard life.

One things for certain, back here in the real world you've got no chance of getting people out of their cars unless you have a decent public transport system and if you're not prepared to have one then say hello to ever increasing traffic and the roads to hold them because that's the future.

[Cyril Haearn]

Trouble is, travelling vast distances is too attractive and cheap. Better public transport is not the solution, motoring must be made less attractive

Nope, not with you at all.

I think about the people around me, shop workers, taxi drivers, bus drivers, drain cleaners, solicitors, sheet metal workers, computer programmers, analysts, MP, network specialists, nursery workers, teachers, physics professors, doctors, nurses, consultants - I could go on and on and on.

One thing I'm pretty certain is that we couldn't construct a local area within a walk or cycle for all of them, they may as well simply put their trades up on their own front doors - and folk would still need to come and visit them!
Or perhaps you're thinking we build estates for solicitors and perhaps over there is where all of the bicycle repair men live and that estate there is just for ambulance drivers. And presumably if they marry someone out of their profession then one of them has to give up work? But their clients still have to get to them. Moving the service provider doesn't mean the clients move with them.

Perhaps in your Utopian view nobody works as a solicitor or sheet metal worker. We're all just subsidence farming and the only travel we do is to the market to sell our pigs on Fridays...

I'd actually be interested in knowing how you see a world where nobody travels. IMO the population is too large and skill sets too specialised to go back to some idealistic but short and hard life.

One things for certain, back here in the real world you've got no chance of getting people out of their cars unless you have a decent public transport system and if you're not prepared to have one then say hello to ever increasing traffic and the roads to hold them because that's the future.

"Utopia" is a positive word in my book
I do not believe in no travel, but in less, society functioned well enough a few decades ago with much less travel and transport
If people are helped to travel less there are lots of gains/savings in time, cash, health, resources

Lots of things can be done by video link now, less need to meet personally

One wonders whether the people in your Utopia who spend lots of time travelling are able to give their best at work?

Yes I am a Utopian and proud of it, I experienced impossible things after 1989, I believe things can get better

You mention my "world where nobody travels", I did not advocate no travel at all, please do not misquote, thanks

[kwackers]

You mention my "world where nobody travels", I did not advocate no travel at all, please do not misquote, thanks

I didn't quote you, did you see any quotes? I simply extrapolated your view to its obvious conclusion.

The reality is your view isn't going to happen.
To convince me otherwise you're going to have to explain how most jobs and most clients work so well in your world that they give up their cars, particularly with crap public transport.

Idealism/utopianism is all very well, but unless you're pragmatic then you can only ever be disappointed. I'm sure you'll now mention that you managed it - and hey! Me too! I've also worked from home on and off for years.
But for most people it isn't an option and tbh for me I only enjoy it as a respite from the daily travel drudge (and I use a bike, but it's still a drudge) after a while I miss actually interacting with people - and as a rule I find I don't like real people so I'm guessing folk that are a lot more social than me would miss it even more.

Idealism is a goal but pragmatism and a decent public transport system is the way forward.

[Bonefishblues]

I commuted 175.4 miles today. I'd love something closer, I really would

[kwackers]

One thing that's started here (in Liverpool and presumably elsewhere) is that Aviva now have a bus service with an app so you can call it from your phone and it'll divert a nearby bus to come and pick you up.

Obviously these aren't numbered buses on preset routes but mini buses (still with displays and Aviva logos). I'm guessing their servers work out routes for buses and figure out where to insert passengers they're picking up.

It's a new service so time will tell if it's a goer but I like the idea.

[Cugel]

"Utopia" is a positive word in my book
I do not believe in no travel, but in less, society functioned well enough a few decades ago with much less travel and transport
If people are helped to travel less there are lots of gains/savings in time, cash, health, resources

Lots of things can be done by video link now, less need to meet personally

One wonders whether the people in your Utopia who spend lots of time travelling are able to give their best at work?

Yes I am a Utopian and proud of it, I experienced impossible things after 1989, I believe things can get better

You mention my "world where nobody travels", I did not advocate no travel at all, please do not misquote, thanks

I feel you are unaware of the full meaning and import of the notion "utopia". Part of its meaning is that it's far beyond the line "feasible" and well into the sunlit uplands of Erehwon.

Worse, those who "believe" in some perfek scheme for human living tend to have not just unrealistic expectations and desires but also an inclination to impose (often by very brute force) their wonderful scheme upon all humans, whether those humans agree with the details of the scheme or not. This is a doubly doubtful dictat as the scheme (being unrealistic) never realises but the schemer (especially if he has become a dictator in order to impose the scheme) eradicates all opposition to it anyway.

For details see, amongst other recent historical example: The USSR; Nazi Germany; Maoist China; Neocon adventures in The Middle East.

Anyroadup, even though I myself like one or two of your utopian scheme details, I feel that other aspects might well be not to my liking. Humans, eh? Bluddy awkward disputational beasts, the lot of us (except those who enjoy being in the mob, utopia-following or of some other flavour of rabid and intolerant nutters).

Cugel

[reohn2]

Worse, those who "believe" in some perfek scheme for human living tend to have not just unrealistic expectations and desires but also an inclination to impose (often by very brute force) their wonderful scheme upon all humans, whether those humans agree with the details of the scheme or not.

Cugel

And sometimes have and irresistible urge to press buttons

[Cugel]

Worse, those who "believe" in some perfek scheme for human living tend to have not just unrealistic expectations and desires but also an inclination to impose (often by very brute force) their wonderful scheme upon all humans, whether those humans agree with the details of the scheme or not.

Cugel

And sometimes have and irresistible urge to press buttons

That would be the "cleansing" button, which magically washes away the sub-humans disagreeing with the Utopiast's cunning scheme to make all things bright and beautiful. Historically, such buttons have been connected to various mechanisms of implementation, as you will know.

Some of those harbouring the more extreme utopian sentiments get them all mixed up with other queer mental conditions they've somehow acquired, such as narcissism or just plain failure to manage their angers. In these cases, there is often something of a continuous jabbing at the cleansing button, with the cleansing mechanisms applied willy-nilly to all and sundry!

I have an awful feeling that a certain Trump is a button jabber, which button he will jab in the angry conviction that it will make Yankland great again. He is not known for his wisdom & foresight so it may well be that the result will be that everywhere, including Yankland, will be the very opposite of "great" for millennia; or even forever.

Cugel

[Cyril Haearn]

Worse, those who "believe" in some perfek scheme for human living tend to have not just unrealistic expectations and desires but also an inclination to impose (often by very brute force) their wonderful scheme upon all humans, whether those humans agree with the details of the scheme or not.

Cugel

And sometimes have an irresistible urge to press buttons

Had to think for a moment
Did it again today, pressed the light at the foot crossing as I cycled by, motons had to wait at the lights, else they would have endangered me crossing my path

Anything that holds up motor traffic is welcome

There is a folding bridge near me, I don't mind waiting 10 minutes if it opens when driving (motor OFF!), when cycling I go another way

[horizon]

Just like cars - what problem does a bicycle solve?

I was being a bit harsh about electric cars and certainly didn't want to spoil the discussion but here are a couple of Guardian articles which basically do inform my opinion:

https://www.theguardian.com/environment ... rank-kelly

https://www.theguardian.com/environment ... -pollution

https://www.theguardian.com/environment ... -transport

You can see where I and others are coming from without feeling you have to defend electric cars. But I suppose on a cycling forum this thread was inevitably going to elicit some more fundamental response from members.

[Cunobelin]

Just been to Lisbon and the amount of electric vehicles is amazing.

There are the "Lime Scooters" that work a bit like Boris bikes, but just get left everywhere:



There are also hundreds of electrically powered Tuk Tuks




The "Boris bikes" are not electric, but electric bike hire is common as are private electric bikes. Then you have the Segways, seated Segways and the likes

Even the Police use Segways




The thing was that this is a very, very hilly city, so although fairly compact it is heavy on power usage, yet they all seem to manage