Electric cars

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Graham
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Re: Electric cars

Post by Graham »

thirdcrank wrote:
... Tens of thousands of people travel to another town to do a job that is done in their own town by someone else. ...


True but possibly an underestimate. I've posted on another thread that a couple of weeks ago, two chaps sub-contracting for an insurance company drove from Brum to my home in Leeds to fix my rainwater drains. IMO hybrids are a bit of a drop-in-the-ocean sort of solution. They just use less diesel/petrol but don't tackle any of the other things listed above.

If the cost of transport was CORRECT ( i.e. much higher ) then locality of labour and goods would be high priority.

It is only because the cost of the intangibles is externalised/socialised, that such nonsense (above) is normal and acceptable.

The ultimate price will be paid in the future and will very high.

Silly people.
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Mick F
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Re: Electric cars

Post by Mick F »

The issue for some people is that there's no work locally. Some jobs have gone due to lack of industry so people have to commute to new places, and those places may not have housing, or housing where you may not want to live.

We don't all live in urban areas or in cities.
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Re: Electric cars

Post by kwackers »

horizon wrote:Because bicycles do solve some of the problems posed by cars, even the major ones. Why I posted the way I did is that one gets the impression that electric cars are seen as a panacea (I'm sorry if I've misinterpreted people's enthusiasm).

I do wonder if halving the use of conventional vehicles would be more beneficial than 100% electric at today's rates of usage.

Panacea? No. Simply better electric than what we have now.

The pragmatic viewpoint is that the number of cars isn't going to fall, folk won't stop using them overnight and pretty much anything is better than what we have now.
Once you accept that then electric cars offer lots of positives including powering peoples home and storing all that wasted solar and wind energy for use later.
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Re: Electric cars

Post by thirdcrank »

Mick F wrote: ... We don't all live in urban areas or in cities.


Very true, but the point being made eg by Graham above, above is that in choosing where to live, people are influenced by ease of travel. It's not easy to upsticks with every change of job, but some people choose to live in rural areas for other reasons than work.
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Re: Electric cars

Post by peetee »

Mick F wrote:The issue for some people is that there's no work locally. Some jobs have gone due to lack of industry so people have to commute to new places, and those places may not have housing, or housing where you may not want to live.

We don't all live in urban areas or in cities.

I fully understand this is the fact for many but there is undoubtedly a large number of people who's journeys could be drastically reduced. I gave two local examples. A digital database and an holistic approach is all it requires.
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Re: Electric cars

Post by Cyril Haearn »

Lots of people live in Southampton and work in Portsmouth, lots more live in Portsmouth and work in Southampton
They should be encouraged to swap
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Re: Electric cars

Post by kwackers »

Don't also forget that most households have two (or more) wage earners.
Highly unlikely they'd all work in the same area.

Despite this being a bicycle forum IMO the first step to car reduction is proper public transport.
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Re: Electric cars

Post by Cyril Haearn »

kwackers wrote:Don't also forget that most households have two (or more) wage earners.
Highly unlikely they'd all work in the same area.

Despite this being a bicycle forum IMO the first step to car reduction is proper public transport.

Most? There is plenty of churn in the labour market, problem is, travelling long distances every day by car or train is far too attractive and cheap
I try to live my dream. Once lived so near work I could not cycle there, took three minutes to walk :wink: Another time, eleven minutes, not worth cycling :?
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Re: Electric cars

Post by kwackers »

Cyril Haearn wrote:Most? There is plenty of churn in the labour market, problem is, travelling long distances every day by car or train is far too attractive and cheap
I try to live my dream. Once lived so near work I could not cycle there, took three minutes to walk :wink: Another time, eleven minutes, not worth cycling :?

Yeah, I would say most - certainly for the sorts of people I know or live by.
Family next door is 3 generations, 11 people live there - I'm pretty certain they don't all work at the same place - which begs the question is that more efficient than them living in separate houses nearer work? (And presumably still driving to see each other).

But most folk I know are either a working couple, or a working couple plus kids still at home and working.

I think the idea that folk can simply live near work is unrealistic in the extreme. Do brickies move house every time they start building a new one? Is there mass migration every time a new Ikea store opens? Do I really have to live in a city centre? What about contract workers?
I reckon over my working life an average job last 5 years, no way I'd move every 5 years - and what about my partner? Where is she going to work?

No, folk need to travel for work. The days when everyone local worked in the same factory are long gone.
The solution is decent public transport underwritten and run by government.
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Re: Electric cars

Post by horizon »

kwackers wrote:
The solution is decent public transport underwritten and run by government.


Followed by a method of allocating it. The problem is that any transport system sows the seeds of its own destruction by making itelf too cheap, efficient, warm and comfortable. Even the overpriced, filthy commuter trains are packed to capacity.

Going back to electric cars, I would happily support their increasing use if the infrastructure for cars generally was reduced. The bicycle has the charming advantage that its use is self-limiting (aka tiring) whereas most other forms of transport allow for longer and longer (in miles) journeys. But even the bicycle itself sometimes clogs its own routes and parking and even pedestrians can be too many in one place.

The solution? IMV it's about social and political decisions concerning the allocation of resources - technology, though important and happening, is only a side show.
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Re: Electric cars

Post by reohn2 »

The "labour market" from what I gather is overwhelmingly short term contracts,as a result people have to have flexible travel arrangements which means a car is a necessity for most.
The vast number of people will only ever cycle 3 miles or less per one way journey or 6miles or less on an e-bike and then only if they feel safe which in turn means good quality infrastructure.
Until cars are stoped point blank,with only a very few exceptions,from entering towns and cities and a joined up,affordable,clean and reliable public transport system in place,the default mode of transport will always be the car.

The solution can be implemented with a long term strategy but the way the UK is governed don't hold your breath.

Electric cars will only ever solve the concentrated pollution problem but not the congestion or the clogged up streets with unused vehicles.

My 2d's worth
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Re: Electric cars

Post by kwackers »

reohn2 wrote:Electric cars will only ever solve the concentrated pollution problem but not the congestion or the clogged up streets with unused vehicles.

I've got my fingers crossed for self driving cars.

A lot of people I know who have a car daren't use it because they'd lose their on street parking space.
Now if you could simply tap a "I need a car" button on your phone and a couple of minutes later one turned up from wherever they're parked and charging I reckon an awful lot of people wouldn't bother owning one.

Its a bit like bike hire schemes but with cars and with them parked out of the way.
I wonder how many cars you'd need? I bet its nothing like the 30 million or so we currently have.

Unless there's some unintended consequence I'd definitely be up for not owning or having to look after a car. Pay my monthly membership fee and the mileage cost and I'd be happy.
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Re: Electric cars

Post by reohn2 »

kwackers wrote:
reohn2 wrote:Electric cars will only ever solve the concentrated pollution problem but not the congestion or the clogged up streets with unused vehicles.

I've got my fingers crossed for self driving cars.

A lot of people I know who have a car daren't use it because they'd lose their on street parking space.
Now if you could simply tap a "I need a car" button on your phone and a couple of minutes later one turned up from wherever they're parked and charging I reckon an awful lot of people wouldn't bother owning one.

Its a bit like bike hire schemes but with cars and with them parked out of the way.
I wonder how many cars you'd need? I bet its nothing like the 30 million or so we currently have.

Unless there's some unintended consequence I'd definitely be up for not owning or having to look after a car. Pay my monthly membership fee and the mileage cost and I'd be happy.

That's the ideal solution and down the road a fair way yet(if you'll pardon the expression).
But look what happened to the bikes in Manchester :? .
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Re: Electric cars

Post by NATURAL ANKLING »

Hi,
Lots of good ideas there.

I have spent most of my life commuting just 3-4 miles, taking the bike was normally a big loop to make up mileage, even when 7 miles it would be a 30 miler loop :)

But...........when I had to commute 55 miles it was drive to station 3 miles then two trains.
My normal day was sometimes 13+ hours away from home................your stuffed and a short sit down and its starts all-over again :(
Driving was a good £5,000 out of my pocket per annum in TOTAL car Running costs including depreciation, the later most chose to ignore! That's pocket not gross.
Train cut that in half :)
Add the extra moving non paid time which could be +50% some days with delays in late trains and traffic jams where a few miles took an hour.................

Its not long before you realise your leisure time is short and very very costly.

Better all round if people do not have to travel far, I saw many on the trains every day going further than me.............washing and dressing etc right in the seat in front of me.......women mostly.

Talk about quality of life...................
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Re: Electric cars

Post by Cugel »

reohn2 wrote:The "labour market" from what I gather is overwhelmingly short term contracts,as a result people have to have flexible travel arrangements which means a car is a necessity for most.
The vast number of people will only ever cycle 3 miles or less per one way journey or 6miles or less on an e-bike and then only if they feel safe which in turn means good quality infrastructure.
Until cars are stoped point blank,with only a very few exceptions,from entering towns and cities and a joined up,affordable,clean and reliable public transport system in place,the default mode of transport will always be the car.

The solution can be implemented with a long term strategy but the way the UK is governed don't hold your breath.

Electric cars will only ever solve the concentrated pollution problem but not the congestion or the clogged up streets with unused vehicles.

My 2d's worth


I read an interesting article (can't find it now) making the argument that a number of technological and economic factors will radically change personal transport perhaps within the next ten years. The core proposals were that electric self-driving cars hired out in uber style will become the ubiquitous norm; personal ownership of a car will become defunct because it's ridiculously costly; shared-hired cars will provide journeys shared by more than one passenger per trip; the cars will mostly be working, not parked; the roads will consequently have less overall traffic, far fewer parked cars and much greater safety.

The author pointed out that such sea-changes or revolutions in transport do tend to occur suddenly, as the cusp of a tech-development hysteresis curve is approached and gone over. He gives as an example two photos from the early C20th, just 8 years apart, where all the horse-drawn vehicles disappear to be replaced by Ford Model-Ts and similar.

An interesting notion. It'll need the drag-anchor of current vested interests to be pulled up, though. Many are the Mr Toads who will not want to give up their "right" to drive about madly in their tin merkins. Many manufacturers will not like car sharing as they prefer to sell more cars, even if they do stand parked 95% of the time and carry only one person when they do actually go somewhere.

Cugel
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