How would you make up for shortfalls in engineers, doctors etc?

[al_yrpal]

Poor old Gradgrind? Would we be happy if 90% of youngsters went to University to study Drama? Of course not, there has to be a limit, after all its OUR tax money that is paying for University study. This isnt the Soviet Union either, where everything is 'planned', but, there must be some balance, and at the moment its too far towards the Arts forcing us to seek skilled people from abroad, and as has been pointed out repeatedly, robbing the third world of much needed skills. There should be incentives to study science and medicine in the form of reduced tuition fees, more bursaries and student apprenticeships.

Al

[reohn2]

Poor old Gradgrind? Would we be happy if 90% of youngsters went to University to study Drama? Of course not, there has to be a limit, after all its OUR tax money that is paying for University study. This isnt the Soviet Union either, where everything is 'planned', but, there must be some balance, and at the moment its too far towards the Arts forcing us to seek skilled people from abroad, and as has been pointed out repeatedly, robbing the third world of much needed skills. There should be incentives to study science and medicine in the form of reduced tuition fees, more bursaries and student apprenticeships.

Al

I totally agree,but it's the last decade of government that's made matters worse in that respect.

[Tangled Metal]

Why would only allowing degrees in what the nation needs result in it being possible to obtain very better off backgrounds? AFAIK the better off aren't the majority and I'd think we would need more graduates than from their ranks alone.

Mind you I'm not a fan of getting only the graduates the nation needs. I think the nation needs some randomness on the graduate stock which I reckon comes from the arts more frequently. So IMHO a percentage from needed subjects and the rest from random subjects that would hopefully recruit only the best of the best because of the scarce places for them.

[Tangled Metal]

Did increased bursaries for science teachers get the results required?

As a graduate with an engineering degree I looked into science or maths teaching because of the various perks offered. Chose a masters course instead because teaching didn't seem a good career IMHO. Too much **** associated with it for my liking. Perhaps that's an issue the potential UK candidates don't want the **** that comes with certain jobs in need of candidates so look elsewhere.

[al_yrpal]

Did increased bursaries for science teachers get the results required?

As a graduate with an engineering degree I looked into science or maths teaching because of the various perks offered. Chose a masters course instead because teaching didn't seem a good career IMHO. Too much **** associated with it for my liking. Perhaps that's an issue the potential UK candidates don't want the **** that comes with certain jobs in need of candidates so look elsewhere.

But, more balance, not Soviet style compulsion...

Al

[reohn2]

Did increased bursaries for science teachers get the results required?

As a graduate with an engineering degree I looked into science or maths teaching because of the various perks offered. Chose a masters course instead because teaching didn't seem a good career IMHO. Too much sh1t associated with it for my liking. Perhaps that's an issue the potential UK candidates don't want the sh1t that comes with certain jobs in need of candidates so look elsewhere.

But, more balance, not Soviet style compulsion...

Al

Al
That's twice you've mentioned the now defunct Soviet Union and compulsion,there's no complusion in the UK that Im aware of,could you elaborate.

[pete75]

Poor old Gradgrind? Would we be happy if 90% of youngsters went to University to study Drama? Of course not, there has to be a limit, after all its OUR tax money that is paying for University study. This isnt the Soviet Union either, where everything is 'planned', but, there must be some balance, and at the moment its too far towards the Arts forcing us to seek skilled people from abroad, and as has been pointed out repeatedly, robbing the third world of much needed skills. There should be incentives to study science and medicine in the form of reduced tuition fees, more bursaries and student apprenticeships.

Al

There's plenty of people wanting to study medicine - the courses are oversubscribed to the extent that almost all demand 3 grade A levels for admission. I believe dentistry is similarly oversubscribed. Very different to my school days when we had profs from Dental schools visiting our sixth form to try and persuade us to do dentistry. They were even running one year conversion courses for non science A level people to learn the required science before embarking on their dental degree.
Any shortage of doctors or dentists is because there aren't enough training places not because not enough people want to study the subjects.

Personally I don't care if my tax money pays for someone to study history, like my niece who after Kings College , Harvard and UCL now lectures in the subject at a Ruskin group establishment

As for the Soviet Union I believe their universities had a very wide range of courses in the arts, sciences and humanities.

[pete75]

Why would only allowing degrees in what the nation needs result in it being possible to obtain very better off backgrounds? AFAIK the better off aren't the majority and I'd think we would need more graduates than from their ranks alone.

Mind you I'm not a fan of getting only the graduates the nation needs. I think the nation needs some randomness on the graduate stock which I reckon comes from the arts more frequently. So IMHO a percentage from needed subjects and the rest from random subjects that would hopefully recruit only the best of the best because of the scarce places for them.

Tell me what graduates does the country need? What knowledge is needed and what could be dispensed with?

[Cyril Haearn]

There is something to be said for planning, although predictions are difficult when they concern the future

Plenty of people know what they want to do but plenty do not

Do enough people in the UK study Russian, Arabic, Chinese?

[al_yrpal]

To be clear I am advocating no centrally planned stuff like the Soviet model. Just incentify courses and training towards what our country needs.

I believe you dont need a degree to be an artist, you get a head start if you have natural talent. My daughters natural talent was obvious when she was 6, we nurtured it and Music and Art has given her a good living now in her mid 40s. She has two GCEs! However an Arts degree can help us less artistically talented folk to appreciate Art more fully.

Al

[reohn2]

To be clear I am advocating no centrally planned stuff like the Soviet model. Just incentify courses and training towards what our country needs.

Al

IMO our country needs a the full panoply of skills and non more so than science and engineering,but we do need the arts too.My main gripe is the likes of skills that can and should be taught on the job with day release or night school courses.
Im not at all familiar with the Soviet system.

[Cyril Haearn]

I did not go to university but I read a lot of history and literature, it is very interesting but what is it good for in €¥$?

A while ago someone "complained" that she had learnt to analyse a poem in three languages but didnae know how to change a light-bulb

[landsurfer]

My Grandson attends University Technical College in Sheffield. He is 14.
His time table consists of Maths, English, PSHE, Biology, Physics and Chemistry and masses of Engineering. Design, Production, CAD/CAM, Machining, Forging, Casting, Composites etc etc.....
No Arts, History, Geography .....
Focused Engineering and Science. The College has 450 students and is strictly disciplined regarding behaviour, attainment and dress.
(There is no school uniform .. but a light grey business suit, white shirt and blue tie are compulsory)
Unlike so many Secondary / Comprehensive schools the goal of the staff, overwhelmingly Dr.s with real industry backgrounds, is learning.
Not teen day care.

There are a number of these colleges throughout the country, entry is by application, and free.
Maybe there should be a lot more...

[Cyril Haearn]

What about foreign languages and a "rounded personality"?

Is specialisation at an early age good, are there arguments against it?

In the 1970s French was compulsory, I did German too, very glad about that now

[al_yrpal]

My Grandson attends University Technical College in Sheffield. He is 14.
His time table consists of Maths, English, PSHE, Biology, Physics and Chemistry and masses of Engineering. Design, Production, CAD/CAM, Machining, Forging, Casting, Composites etc etc.....
No Arts, History, Geography .....
Focused Engineering and Science. The College has 450 students and is strictly disciplined regarding behaviour, attainment and dress.
(There is no school uniform .. but a light grey business suit, white shirt and blue tie are compulsory)
Unlike so many Secondary / Comprehensive schools the goal of the staff, overwhelmingly Dr.s with real industry backgrounds, is learning.
Not teen day care.

There are a number of these colleges throughout the country, entry is by application, and free.
Maybe there should be a lot more...

Great stuff, thankyou Lord Baker! But perhaps add another subject on the lines of an OU Arts Foundation course, an eye opener for technocrats like me to become a more rounded person.

Al