How would you make up for shortfalls in engineers, doctors etc?

[Tangled Metal]

Not an excuse when you consider how a lot of global engineering success stories stem from a foreign country taking British designs and ideas but marketing / packaging them better in the marketplace. Classic example was the Walkman. British design but British audio equipment manufacturers said it wouldn't sell. Sony didn't think that.

Structural engineers and architects (AKA people who draw pretty pictures as a civil engineer lecturer once taught me at uni) at Lord Foster's practise are big award winners. If you put all their awards together you'd need to build a warehouse which would probably garner many international architecture awards in the process (not completely true).

Point being British engineers have always been innovative. It's just the making it happen bit that's not as good as other nations. I think Germany has a mom and pop engineering mentality where firms grow but stay owned by mostly the original family. Result is long term thinking on projects and business plans.

But it's deeper than that. German government thinks long term too. As does German investors and investment banks. There's a whole different mentality going on. We are just behind them.

I also think you can't hang that blame on thatcher neither with her decimation of the engineering / manufacturing sector. Before her there was certainly union issues too. If you're often in labour disputes as a growing engineering company growth will get stifled.

As someone with a career spent dealing with German companies I can see a strong difference in the business sure that really makes the German b companies stronger than UK ones. That difference has absolutely nothing to do with talent of engineers in either country.

[al_yrpal]

Or their financiers do.
It was always held that the real difference was due to all UK investment in engineering being short term and the German investment was long term.

Yep I've heard that excuse many a time.

Its an uncomfortable truth, not an excuse. Funny us Engineers say the same thing?

An example… A friend is presently working in a very long established Engineering business. The family sold it out three years ago splitting it into manufacturing and property. The manufacturing part has been acquired by vultures adding in other complimentary businesses to build a group. The intention is to make it into something they can sell on to an even bigger consortium of vultures, not to develop into a long term sound business.

Incidently this also happened to the German Electrical Engineering software company I advised until last year when the owner died of Cancer. It now looks like it will crash and burn. Families care, vultures dont.

We have just celebrated the 80th of one of my old Apprentice Pals. His private family Midlands based business designs and manufactures all sorts of special purpose machines, battery manufacturing lines for China, Hydrogen Fueling Stations etc A great Engineer and businessman in a family setting. No outside finance, no borrowing, no vultures, 90% for export.

Al

[pete75]

Or their financiers do.
It was always held that the real difference was due to all UK investment in engineering being short term and the German investment was long term.

Yep I've heard that excuse many a time.

Its an uncomfortable truth, not an excuse. Funny us Engineers say the same thing?

An example… A friend is presently working in a very long established Engineering business. The family sold it out three years ago splitting it into manufacturing and property. The manufacturing part has been acquired by vultures adding in other complimentary businesses to build a group. The intention is to make it into something they can sell on to an even bigger consortium of vultures, not to develop into a long term sound business.

Incidently this also happened to the German Electrical Engineering software company I advised until last year when the owner died of Cancer. It now looks like it will crash and burn. Families care, vultures dont.

We have just celebrated the 80th of one of my old Apprentice Pals. His private family Midlands based business designs and manufactures all sorts of special purpose machines, battery manufacturing lines for China, Hydrogen Fueling Stations etc A great Engineer and businessman in a family setting. No outside finance, no borrowing, no vultures, 90% for export.

Al

Ever wonder why those vultures - the people who run Hedge funds and other assorted asset strippers and financiers were so keen to fund the Brexit campaign?

[al_yrpal]

Evidence? Their motive might be more worldwide activity free of EU shackles? Our history is full of the activity of such people starting with insurers in the 17th Century… Their activities have produced great wealth but as Eric observed, not necessarily in the right places…

Al

[pete75]

Evidence? Their motive might be more worldwide activity free of EU shackles? Our history is full of the activity of such people starting with insurers in the 17th Century… Their activities have produced great wealth but as Eric observed, not necessarily in the right places…

Al

Evidence? You obviously haven't been following the campaign very well if you're unaware such people supplied much of the money for the leave campaign.
Free of EU shackles - that'll be why Jacob Really-Smug and the like are moving their businesses to places like Dublin.

[al_yrpal]

Evidence? Their motive might be more worldwide activity free of EU shackles? Our history is full of the activity of such people starting with insurers in the 17th Century… Their activities have produced great wealth but as Eric observed, not necessarily in the right places…

Al

Evidence? You obviously haven't been following the campaign very well if you're unaware such people supplied much of the money for the leave campaign.
Free of EU shackles - that'll be why Jacob Really-Smug and the like are moving their businesses to places like Dublin.

He isnt, he just opened a new office there as a precaution, he already has offices for his investment company in several other countries too. Dublin is just a convenient place to have in the EU and that office will remain shackled. All sorts of people supplied both the Leave and Remain campaigns, Blair for instance and he is still at it. Makes no difference to most people.

Al

[pete75]

Evidence? Their motive might be more worldwide activity free of EU shackles? Our history is full of the activity of such people starting with insurers in the 17th Century… Their activities have produced great wealth but as Eric observed, not necessarily in the right places…

Al

Evidence? You obviously haven't been following the campaign very well if you're unaware such people supplied much of the money for the leave campaign.
Free of EU shackles - that'll be why Jacob Really-Smug and the like are moving their businesses to places like Dublin.

He isnt, he just opened a new office there as a precaution, he already has offices for his investment company in several other countries too. Dublin is just a convenient place to have in the EU and that office will remain shackled. All sorts of people supplied both the Leave and Remain campaigns, Blair for instance and he is still at it. Makes no difference to most people.

Al

So Blair has backed remain with millions of pounds? Evidence?

A precaution? Isn't he someone who's saying Brexit is going to be wonderful - oh I was forgetting he's now saying it'll be wonderful in 50 years time. Bit late for you eh mate?

[landsurfer]

Stop bickering children ..... Lets get back to formulating plans to get more home grown Engineers into the marketplace.

[pete75]

Stop bickering children ..... Lets get back to formulating plans to get more home grown Engineers into the marketplace.

Hey you sound like Vorpal

Does it matter where they come from as long as they do a good job?

The most successful British cars since WW2 Morris Minor, Mini, Morris 1100 etc where designed by a Greek engineer, Alex Issigonis. The famous Triumph Motorcycle company was established and run for over 40 years by a German, Siegfried Bettman likewise the once highly renowned Velocette was founded by a German Johannes Gütgemann. The engines of the superb Vincent motorbikes were designed by Phil Irving, an Australian. The great Isambard Brunel was the son of the renowned French engineer Marc Brunel. His father sent him to the Lycée Henri-IV in Paris to be educated. There are doubtless many other examples - I've just mentioned some I knew about.

[al_yrpal]

Does it matter where they come from as long as they do a good job?

Well, you seem to think so…

Al

[sizbut]

Does it matter where they come from as long as they do a good job?

No. But if any of the following apply; born here, educated here, trained here, feel valued and respected here, etc. - then the odds of their staying, starting companies, attracting companies, etc. will be a lot higher.

The UK can't compete at the 'throw cheap labour at it' end of manufacturing - it has to be in other areas; original design, new ideas, specialist products and technologies, etc., ie. the original engineering stages - even if it then gets manufactured somewhere else.

[pete75]

Does it matter where they come from as long as they do a good job?

No. But if any of the following apply; born here, educated here, trained here, feel valued and respected here, etc. - then the odds of their staying, starting companies, attracting companies, etc. will be a lot higher.

The UK can't compete at the 'throw cheap labour at it' end of manufacturing - it has to be in other areas; original design, new ideas, specialist products and technologies, etc., ie. the original engineering stages - even if it then gets manufactured somewhere else.

And that won't provide jobs for many people. A successful economy needs to provide jobs for all types of people. If not the highly trained people you claim will stay here may well leave because of the high rates of tax needed to support all the unemployed folk.

Germany is a higher wage country yet they seem to manufacture a lot of stuff in their own country providing a range of jobs types. They employ 7.5 million people in manufacturing compared to our 2.5 million yet manage to compete successfully in export markets. If we're to improve the lot of the so called left behind similar needs to happen here.

You've also got the problem that the "sweated labour" countries you advocate outsourcing manufacturing to will learn how to engineer and design stuff for themselves and then undercut the designed here products. Taiwan is a good example - so many UK and USA companies having their bikes made there and hey presto the Taiwanese learn and then establish Giant the biggest bike company in the world. Korea is another example - started out as a source of cheap labour for companies like Sony but now Samsung has taken the lead in quality TV manufacture.

[Vorpal]

Stop bickering children ..... Lets get back to formulating plans to get more home grown Engineers into the marketplace.

Hey you sound like Vorpal

Does it matter where they come from as long as they do a good job?

No it doesn't matter where they come from. In fact, a diverse workforce is likely to be more innovative. But, the UK still needs more home grown engineers.

[landsurfer]

Stop bickering children ..... Lets get back to formulating plans to get more home grown Engineers into the marketplace.

Hey you sound like Vorpal

Does it matter where they come from as long as they do a good job?

No it doesn't matter where they come from. In fact, a diverse workforce is likely to be more innovative. But, the UK still needs more home grown engineers.

There is a dark side to the "It dos'nt matter where they come from" approach.
Bombardier Aerospace (BT) is striving towards the all graduate workforce.
Not on the shop floor.
But everywhere else ... Engineering, Methods, Planning, etc etc ...
Highly experienced aerospace engineers, ex British Aerospace and RAF Apprentices, HND and Licensed Engineers with years of experience, employment and success are being replaced with Graduates ..... from India, China et al..
My brother in law was a senior Methods Engineer with BT Aero in Belfast for nearly 30 years ..... and suddenly found himself unemployed as he had un-wittingly trained and mentored his replacement .. from India.
The Indian Engineer is not employed by BT Belfast but by BT India .... and his salary and subsistence are payed via the Indian connection.

It does matter where they come from, where their point of payment is, and how much less than the UK staff they replace they are paid ...

Reality Check; The Indian Engineer is working in Belfast. BUT based in India. Effectively on a detachment to Belfast. Paid at Indian BT Engineer rates. Into his Indian bank ...

Something stinks .... and it's not the young man from India ... he's a pawn on the multi national corporation chess board.

[pete75]

Hey you sound like Vorpal

Does it matter where they come from as long as they do a good job?

No it doesn't matter where they come from. In fact, a diverse workforce is likely to be more innovative. But, the UK still needs more home grown engineers.

There is a dark side to the "It dos'nt matter where they come from" approach.
Bombardier Aerospace (BT) is striving towards the all graduate workforce.
Not on the shop floor.
But everywhere else ... Engineering, Methods, Planning, etc etc ...
Highly experienced aerospace engineers, ex British Aerospace and RAF Apprentices, HND and Licensed Engineers with years of experience, employment and success are being replaced with Graduates ..... from India, China et al..
My brother in law was a senior Methods Engineer with BT Aero in Belfast for nearly 30 years ..... and suddenly found himself unemployed as he had un-wittingly trained and mentored his replacement .. from India.
The Indian Engineer is not employed by BT Belfast but by BT India .... and his salary and subsistence are payed via the Indian connection.

It does matter where they come from, where their point of payment is, and how much less than the UK staff they replace they are paid ...

Reality Check; The Indian Engineer is working in Belfast. BUT based in India. Effectively on a detachment to Belfast. Paid at Indian BT Engineer rates. Into his Indian bank ...

Something stinks .... and it's not the young man from India ... he's a pawn on the multi national corporation chess board.

Well they've got to do something to cut costs to make up for the import duties the US is imposing on their planes.

Seriously though what you describe has been quite common in the IT industry for some years now as well as just exporting the work to Bangalore etc.
The workers from India are almost like bonded labourers in that they can only work here for the company which brought them over so can't leave for another which will pay them the going rate for their skills and knowledge.

It's the way of the world under Conservative an dother right wing governments - goes hand in hand with things like zero hours contracts. After Brexit they'll be able to get rid of all those pesky EU regulations on stuff like paid holidays and TUPE which ensures that when a firm is taken over the new owners can't change workers terms and conditions for the worse.