I just got my first smartphone but ...

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Cunobelin
Posts: 8539
Joined: 6 Feb 2007, 7:22pm

Re: so I just got my first smartphone but ...

Postby Cunobelin » 25 Nov 2018, 9:24am

Canuk wrote:So much for your tin foil hat...

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politic ... 83416.html

Here's how GCHQ can turn your nice shiny new phone on and off (Android/Apple or Windows OS), even when in 'airplane' mode (yeah they can turn that on and off too). And how they can turn on your microphone, front and rear cameras and record it all at will. They can even track you within better than GPS accuracy (which is about 10m) finding your position relative to the nearest mobile mast within 1 metre. The first time you put a SIm card in your new phone that's it, you're made.

They can even find your phone when it's switched off, with no sim card inserted and according to the esteemed Mr. Snowden, even when the battery is taken out. (that's how they caught one of the 7/7 bombers, when he fled to Italy). They just power up the local microwave tower and go search your IMIE. There is no such thing as 'offline'. Your smart phone is always connected to the nearest mobile mast.

Anyone who thinks anything about a smart phone is safe and secure is bonkers. They were custom built as discrete surveillance tools. I can even post a video of fingerprint and face unlock being broken by a nice Russian hacker in under 40 seconds. It's estimated that at any one time there are 1500 GCHQ hackers offensively and defensively monitoring and recording UK wide electronic communications. 24/7... Each one of these can grab and track (with the aid of very sophisticated AI) 1000+ targets per day. I could post it. But I wouldn't want to blow your fancy metallic head gear off :wink:

Want to be safe and secure? Buy yourself one of these :a Nokia 3210.



.... and be labelled as a drug dealer!

If you watch the "Police with cameras road action squad", any fool knows that the only reason you use one of these old phones is cos you is a dealer!

Psamathe
Posts: 9349
Joined: 10 Jan 2014, 8:56pm

Re: so I just got my first smartphone but ...

Postby Psamathe » 25 Nov 2018, 10:55am

Canuk wrote:So much for your tin foil hat...

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politic ... 83416.html

Here's how GCHQ can turn your nice shiny new phone on and off (Android/Apple or Windows OS), even when in 'airplane' mode (yeah they can turn that on and off too). And how they can turn on your microphone, front and rear cameras and record it all at will. They can even track you within better than GPS accuracy (which is about 10m) finding your position relative to the nearest mobile mast within 1 metre. The first time you put a SIm card in your new phone that's it, you're made.......

But there are benefits as well
http://www.newsbiscuit.com/2013/06/26/gchq-to-offer-find-that-lost-email-service/ wrote:GCHQ TO OFFER ‘FIND THAT LOST EMAIL’ SERVICE

As part of the government’s plans to reduce the deficit, GCHQ will shortly introduce a new service to members of the public to enable them to track down emails that they thought they’d lost or deleted.

‘We know how frustrating it is to lose something that’s important to you, so we want to help people be reunited with their personal data,’ said GCHQ chief.

Or if you are after better service/information
http://www.newsbiscuit.com/2013/08/06/british-intelligence-launch-subscription-surveillance-service-gchq/ wrote:BRITISH INTELLIGENCE LAUNCH SUBSCRIPTION SURVEILLANCE SERVICE, GCHQ+

Britain’s biggest spy agency, GCHQ, said it was addressing the commercial concerns of 21st Century espionage with the introduction of a new paywall. ‘The move heralds a brave new world of electronic surveillance,’ claimed Foreign Secretary William Hague. ‘Now, for just £100 million you get complete access to everything we know.’

According to their adverts, the new service offers, ‘the very latest premier league wire taps, clandestine ops and, of course, every text, email and phone call that anyone ever makes. All sent direct to your own phone, tablet or home computer. No need to tell us your details. We already know.’


Ian

pete75
Posts: 10312
Joined: 24 Jul 2007, 2:37pm

Re: so I just got my first smartphone but ...

Postby pete75 » 25 Nov 2018, 10:56am

Cunobelin wrote:
Canuk wrote:So much for your tin foil hat...

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politic ... 83416.html

Here's how GCHQ can turn your nice shiny new phone on and off (Android/Apple or Windows OS), even when in 'airplane' mode (yeah they can turn that on and off too). And how they can turn on your microphone, front and rear cameras and record it all at will. They can even track you within better than GPS accuracy (which is about 10m) finding your position relative to the nearest mobile mast within 1 metre. The first time you put a SIm card in your new phone that's it, you're made.

They can even find your phone when it's switched off, with no sim card inserted and according to the esteemed Mr. Snowden, even when the battery is taken out. (that's how they caught one of the 7/7 bombers, when he fled to Italy). They just power up the local microwave tower and go search your IMIE. There is no such thing as 'offline'. Your smart phone is always connected to the nearest mobile mast.

Anyone who thinks anything about a smart phone is safe and secure is bonkers. They were custom built as discrete surveillance tools. I can even post a video of fingerprint and face unlock being broken by a nice Russian hacker in under 40 seconds. It's estimated that at any one time there are 1500 GCHQ hackers offensively and defensively monitoring and recording UK wide electronic communications. 24/7... Each one of these can grab and track (with the aid of very sophisticated AI) 1000+ targets per day. I could post it. But I wouldn't want to blow your fancy metallic head gear off :wink:

Want to be safe and secure? Buy yourself one of these :a Nokia 3210.



.... and be labelled as a drug dealer!

If you watch the "Police with cameras road action squad", any fool knows that the only reason you use one of these old phones is cos you is a dealer!


And the Nokia 3210 has an IMIE so if they really can be tracked on a switched off phone then the 3210 won't prevent it.
This does sound like tin foil hat stuff - even if GCHQ can theoretically listen to my phone calls why on earth would they choose to waste their time doing so?

mercalia
Posts: 9201
Joined: 22 Sep 2013, 10:03pm
Location: london South

Re: so I just got my first smartphone but ...

Postby mercalia » 25 Nov 2018, 11:53am

I think the article confuses put into sleep/standby mode ( power button on nokia 635) and literally turning off where it has to boot again and takes 20 seconds or so ( power button and swipe down the screen )? I only got one as last summer when on holiday I stopped at the M40( ?) service just outside Oxford and my motorbike, the battery failed so wouldnt start. Lucky I had my laptop with me so could contact Halfords in Oxford ( and find out where they are ) for a replacement - was back on the road within 2 hours. Could have been a bad moment. One interesting feature is that IE11 on windows 8.1 mobile, is not the HTML5 vanilla IE11 on desktop but one augmented with webkit ( that other browsers now use) extensions! works well. The built in maps is a bonus.
Last edited by mercalia on 25 Nov 2018, 12:09pm, edited 2 times in total.

kwackers
Posts: 12248
Joined: 4 Jun 2008, 9:29pm
Location: Warrington

Re: so I just got my first smartphone but ...

Postby kwackers » 25 Nov 2018, 12:00pm

mercalia wrote:I think the article confuses put into sleep/standby mode ( power button on nokie 635) and literally turning off where it has to boot again and takes 20 seconds or so ( power button and swipe down the screen )?

It lost me when it claimed they could track a phone with the battery taken out...
Phones aren't passive devices, they have a 3w transmitter in there and 3w is a lot of energy for something lacking a battery.

If it bothered me that much I'd keep it in a Faraday wallet or a tin can.

Psamathe
Posts: 9349
Joined: 10 Jan 2014, 8:56pm

Re: so I just got my first smartphone but ...

Postby Psamathe » 25 Nov 2018, 12:11pm

kwackers wrote:
mercalia wrote:I think the article confuses put into sleep/standby mode ( power button on nokie 635) and literally turning off where it has to boot again and takes 20 seconds or so ( power button and swipe down the screen )?

It lost me when it claimed they could track a phone with the battery taken out...
Phones aren't passive devices, they have a 3w transmitter in there and 3w is a lot of energy for something lacking a battery.

If it bothered me that much I'd keep it in a Faraday wallet or a tin can.

To me, tracking my phone is not the issue because they can track you pretty well even if you don't have a phone (make a call on your landline, use your credit card in Tesco, numberplate recognition, face recognition from the vast numbers of CCTV we have, sign for a delivery, etc.).

It's that they track you that is the worry, not tracking the location of your phone.

And reading your e-mails or your online behaviour is also not a function of your phone as they will do the same tracking from your use of a laptop/desktop at home, etc. and again, for me it's the invasion of privacy that concerns me, not that they are doing it on the occasions I use my phone.

Internet wise you can use a VPN (which will help, but much depends on where you e.g. locate your e-mail servers and they can often read your e-mail through their invasions of privacy of the other party (sender to you or receiver from you). I look at is as you can limit their invasions of privacy but only the Government can stop it (and they are moving in the opposite direction).

Ian

kwackers
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Joined: 4 Jun 2008, 9:29pm
Location: Warrington

Re: so I just got my first smartphone but ...

Postby kwackers » 25 Nov 2018, 12:41pm

Psamathe wrote:Internet wise you can use a VPN (which will help, but much depends on where you e.g. locate your e-mail servers and they can often read your e-mail through their invasions of privacy of the other party (sender to you or receiver from you). I look at is as you can limit their invasions of privacy but only the Government can stop it (and they are moving in the opposite direction).

Ian

Which bit do you think raises the most flags for the government.
Normal internet traffic or someone using a VPN.
IMO you may as well shout "look at me!".

Psamathe
Posts: 9349
Joined: 10 Jan 2014, 8:56pm

Re: so I just got my first smartphone but ...

Postby Psamathe » 25 Nov 2018, 12:51pm

kwackers wrote:
Psamathe wrote:Internet wise you can use a VPN (which will help, but much depends on where you e.g. locate your e-mail servers and they can often read your e-mail through their invasions of privacy of the other party (sender to you or receiver from you). I look at is as you can limit their invasions of privacy but only the Government can stop it (and they are moving in the opposite direction).

Ian

Which bit do you think raises the most flags for the government.
Normal internet traffic or someone using a VPN.
IMO you may as well shout "look at me!".

True, "look at me ... except you can't".

But what about those people using encrypted web browsing (e.g. https://, sftp://) what does that say about their wanting to avoid scrutiny? raising flags, etc.

Them wanting to look at me does not concern me, their being able to does. If they succeed then fine (because they'll find my traffic boring and dull) but I regard it like having a government agent standing by your letter box opening and reading all your mail - people would not accept it so you'd put up a mailbox they can't get into and watch them wasting their time trying to get in and not being unduly concerned if they occasionally succeed.

But reality is even with a VPN they still can find out and monitor a lot about me (phone calls, credit card use, CCTV, etc.) so using a VPN is more me giving them the finger and expressing "I do mind".

Ian

PH
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Re: so I just got my first smartphone but ...

Postby PH » 25 Nov 2018, 1:18pm

wasn't this a question about sticky fingers :roll:
Put a decent screen protector on it and don't be afraid of wiping it on anything handy, like your trousers. I use a Gorilla one though there's plenty of others.

kwackers
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Joined: 4 Jun 2008, 9:29pm
Location: Warrington

Re: so I just got my first smartphone but ...

Postby kwackers » 25 Nov 2018, 2:05pm

Psamathe wrote:True, "look at me ... except you can't".

Once you've drawn attention to yourself then they can.

The phone is a small part of the overall surveillance. If you're of interest then there's a vast array of things that can occur, from the good old fashioned (and effective) to the complex technical stuff.

VPN's and their ilk are useful if you have no other reason to be of interest because the reality is 'the man' really doesn't give a flying f.
If you're of interest then I wouldn't put too much faith in them.

Psamathe
Posts: 9349
Joined: 10 Jan 2014, 8:56pm

Re: so I just got my first smartphone but ...

Postby Psamathe » 25 Nov 2018, 2:43pm

kwackers wrote:
Psamathe wrote:True, "look at me ... except you can't".

Once you've drawn attention to yourself then they can.

The phone is a small part of the overall surveillance. If you're of interest then there's a vast array of things that can occur, from the good old fashioned (and effective) to the complex technical stuff.

VPN's and their ilk are useful if you have no other reason to be of interest because the reality is 'the man' really doesn't give a flying f.
If you're of interest then I wouldn't put too much faith in them.

I think "if you are of interest to them" there are ways to pass messages that they would never be able to crack (and you don't need a maths degree to operate such encryption. Which means either terrorists and criminals are not very bright or all the vast sums we pour into domestic population online communications monitoring is of very little use.

Ian

kwackers
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Joined: 4 Jun 2008, 9:29pm
Location: Warrington

Re: so I just got my first smartphone but ...

Postby kwackers » 25 Nov 2018, 5:04pm

Psamathe wrote:I think "if you are of interest to them" there are ways to pass messages that they would never be able to crack (and you don't need a maths degree to operate such encryption. Which means either terrorists and criminals are not very bright or all the vast sums we pour into domestic population online communications monitoring is of very little use.

Ian

You're making assumptions there about intercepting the message and trying to decode it. In the real world there are better ways of circumventing the encryption.
I've written secure software and looked over the results of the 'hardness testing' and it gets attacked in ways I'd never have thought of.
I certainly realised that simply having a truly secure message was a small part of the overall problem.

We laugh at the not so bright terrorists and villains but the truth is some of them are very bright but still get caught and the reason is nearly always because other people are involved or their hardware wasn't as secure as they thought but more often than not it's simply that they allowed themselves to be noticed and once you're under the microscope encrypted messages are the least of your worries.

I guess we should think ourselves lucky that we live in a country where once we get 'noticed' we don't suddenly disappear and nobody dares question where we went.
Of course IMO all of this is of no importance to me. I'm unlikely to ever bring attention to myself and even if I did I probably couldn't be more boring and inconsequential in the general scheme of things.

I appreciate though that some folk don't like imagining they're being spied on, which is funny if you think about it because as AI systems come online almost every moment of your day will be recorded and that and all your communications will be analysed to see if you fall into the "bad guy" pattern.

Psamathe
Posts: 9349
Joined: 10 Jan 2014, 8:56pm

Re: so I just got my first smartphone but ...

Postby Psamathe » 25 Nov 2018, 6:45pm

kwackers wrote:
Psamathe wrote:Internet wise you can use a VPN (which will help, but much depends on where you e.g. locate your e-mail servers and they can often read your e-mail through their invasions of privacy of the other party (sender to you or receiver from you). I look at is as you can limit their invasions of privacy but only the Government can stop it (and they are moving in the opposite direction).

Ian

Which bit do you think raises the most flags for the government.
Normal internet traffic or someone using a VPN.
IMO you may as well shout "look at me!".

Watching TV about an hour ago on commercial channel and 1st time ever there was an ad for a VPN service. Not seen one before but surprised as it suggested they are moving more towards mainstream. For one based in Panama (I actually checked up on them ages ago and was not happy myself - which does not mean they do or don't provide what others might be looking for).

Ian

mercalia
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Joined: 22 Sep 2013, 10:03pm
Location: london South

Re: so I just got my first smartphone but ...

Postby mercalia » 26 Nov 2018, 1:41pm

well I seem to have solved my greasey fingers problem some what. I got a bunch of thin cotton gloves meant for jewelers etc that still work after a fashion. Not as If I use the phone much every day for making calls etc.

brynpoeth
Posts: 8428
Joined: 30 Nov 2013, 11:26am

Re: so I just got my first smartphone but ...

Postby brynpoeth » 26 Nov 2018, 1:44pm

I have a very cheap smartphone, the screen does not get greasy from my fingers
Cycling-of course, but it is far better on a Gillott
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