Asking the people

[reohn2]

Might be worth trying to move to a marginal constituency

I remember years ago hoping the EU would impose Fair Votes on the UK, that alone would justify membership

But I am an awful optimist, just read that the UK shall be financially worse off, maybe economic growth shall be questioned, not sure how likely that is, but I experienced The Impossible after 1989, nearly 30 years ago. Seems like yesterday sometimes, +1

Perhaps imposing would not have been a good idea. One of the chief criticisms (justifiable or not) of the EU has been that it imposes things.

FWIW I reckon Brexit won't happen. Which I regret, but there we are. The Leave side cannot coalesce around one strategy, and the Remain side, whilst mouthing "we accept the result of the referendum" are just waiting for a second vote, by which time a weary electorate will have given in and just want the whole thing over so that they can get on with their lives.

And will I accept the democratic Remain vote? Yes I will. Just as I accepted the Leave vote. It may be foolish, but I have a romantic attachment to the idea of democracy and I do believe in asking the people even if they are going to make a choice I think is wrong.

Your main reason for voting out(correct me if I'm wrong)was because of immigration numbers.Yesterday immigration figures were released for this year that showed EU immgration at it's lowest since 2012 and immigration from the restof the world at it's highest sincw 2004,the total number was 270,000.
We currently have a PM who was Home Sec previously and throughtout her role in government in those two posts since 2009 has claimed she would bring immigration down to the "tens of thousands".
I won't go into the Windrush and other disgusting immigration debacles she's presided over,only to say the woman is a liar,and that the UK needs immigration presently at those levels,and that vast majority of these people come hear to work and cotribute to the UK's economy.

How will leaving the EU change that position other than a depressed economy where there'll be no work for them to come to?

[Tangled Metal]

What do those EU immigration figures show? Brexit is making the UK a less attractive country for rEU citizens but that rest of the world is filling in the gaps? I very much doubt immigration figures overall will change post Brexit. If I'm right what was the point?

[kwackers]

What do those EU immigration figures show? Brexit is making the UK a less attractive country for rEU citizens but that rest of the world is filling in the gaps? I very much doubt immigration figures overall will change post Brexit. If I'm right what was the point?

Ah, but the goal posts have moved.
Initially it was that immigration was the problem, now it's the wrong sort of immigration.
You can't defend a position unless you're prepared to change your view to support it as it moves around.

This was all foretold before the referendum...

[mjr]

What do those EU immigration figures show? Brexit is making the UK a less attractive country for rEU citizens but that rest of the world is filling in the gaps? I very much doubt immigration figures overall will change post Brexit. If I'm right what was the point?

With some luck, it'll make the xenophobes finally face up to the fact that they are traitors against our thousand-year tradition as a working, trading island with a significant contribution by immigrant workers and that this tradition is what it's gone to war to defend many times, not to pickle the country in aspic and try to pretend we're an isolated distinct race. That would be a silver lining to the dark storm clouds.

As for asking the people, the BBC asked some people in Peterborough yesterday, including the obligatory uncivilised angry nutter saying that immigrants came from places that weren't "civilised". The BBC asked some people in Newlyn this morning, fishermen hoping that they'd get control of fishing policy, contrary to everything Gove has repeated in the last few days.

Asking the people is all well and good, but why does no-one seem to be willing to challenge their misconceptions?

[reohn2]

What do those EU immigration figures show? Brexit is making the UK a less attractive country for rEU citizens but that rest of the world is filling in the gaps? I very much doubt immigration figures overall will change post Brexit. If I'm right what was the point?

Quite!

[pwa]

Might be worth trying to move to a marginal constituency

I remember years ago hoping the EU would impose Fair Votes on the UK, that alone would justify membership

But I am an awful optimist, just read that the UK shall be financially worse off, maybe economic growth shall be questioned, not sure how likely that is, but I experienced The Impossible after 1989, nearly 30 years ago. Seems like yesterday sometimes, +1

Perhaps imposing would not have been a good idea. One of the chief criticisms (justifiable or not) of the EU has been that it imposes things.

FWIW I reckon Brexit won't happen. Which I regret, but there we are. The Leave side cannot coalesce around one strategy, and the Remain side, whilst mouthing "we accept the result of the referendum" are just waiting for a second vote, by which time a weary electorate will have given in and just want the whole thing over so that they can get on with their lives.

And will I accept the democratic Remain vote? Yes I will. Just as I accepted the Leave vote. It may be foolish, but I have a romantic attachment to the idea of democracy and I do believe in asking the people even if they are going to make a choice I think is wrong.

Your main reason for voting out(correct me if I'm wrong)was because of immigration numbers.Yesterday immigration figures were released for this year that showed EU immgration at it's lowest since 2012 and immigration from the restof the world at it's highest sincw 2004,the total number was 270,000.
We currently have a PM who was Home Sec previously and throughtout her role in government in those two posts since 2009 has claimed she would bring immigration down to the "tens of thousands".
I won't go into the Windrush and other disgusting immigration debacles she's presided over,only to say the woman is a liar,and that the UK needs immigration presently at those levels,and that vast majority of these people come hear to work and cotribute to the UK's economy.

How will leaving the EU change that position other than a depressed economy where there'll be no work for them to come to?

Wrong thread for that question, perhaps.

But let me ask a question. Partly rhetorical so you don't need to answer. Net migration (which is what concerns me) is on its own giving us an extra million people to house every four or five years. They add to the existing demand for homes. One million every four or five years. Offer me a solution that does not mean building on the fields around every town and village. Offer me a solution that does not make our green spaces more remote from where we live, that does not make our trains and roads more crowded. Offer me a solution that does not provide an endless source of cheap labour, ensuring that employers need not offer more than the minimum wage because there is always someone from a poorer country who will step in. Without an immigration policy focused on the needs of our communities we cannot address those problems. The fact that the Tories haven't got everything right doesn't change that. I'd prefer to be supporting a Labour government that was addressing this, but that seems a long way off.

Regardless of all that, I am democratic at heart and will go with the choice the people make. There is no higher authority, unless you believe in God.

[Cyril Haearn]

Doggerland is the solution, also Stoke-on-Trent and other places where many homes are empty

Poulations can go down as well as up

[reohn2]

Wrong thread for that question, perhaps.

I don't think so I was simply pointing out just how the UK economy needs immigrants,and how the current government is saying one thing and doing or allowing another and has been for a decade,for it's own politrickal gain which IMO will come back and bite them.

But let me ask a question. Partly rhetorical so you don't need to answer. Net migration (which is what concerns me) is on its own giving us an extra million people to house every four or five years. They add to the existing demand for homes. One million every four or five years. Offer me a solution that does not mean building on the fields around every town and village. Offer me a solution that does not make our green spaces more remote from where we live, that does not make our trains and roads more crowded. Offer me a solution that does not provide an endless source of cheap labour, ensuring that employers need not offer more than the minimum wage because there is always someone from a poorer country who will step in

a)The present government and the previous one FTM,could've stopped foreign investors who don't even live here,buying whole apartment blocks,sitting on them without anyone living in them until their resale price increases enough to make it worth their while to sell them again.
b)They could've put in a building program that built enough social housing and affordable homes instead of letting housing companies buy up building land and sit on it until the time's right to build on it for maximum profit.
c)They could've built more homes on brown field sites near town and city centres.
d)They could've made it possible to build on small sites not being used for anything else for local people.
e)They could've capped rents.
All of these things would help aleviate the need for people to travel to work therebye easing the burden on old indequate and groaning infrastructure.
The government could've raised the minimum wage and policed it so no one is paid less.
It's done very few of these things because it's wedded to unbridled capitalism and an austerity program that's not working for the poorest in our society.
As result of a lack of investment due to that course of action,the roads and railways are in a terrible state and people can't afford to barely live because housing is at a premium,leaving working people needing to use foodbanks.

Without an immigration policy focused on the needs of our communities we cannot address those problems. The fact that the Tories haven't got everything right doesn't change that

.
The Tories IMHO haven't got anything right because they're in the pocket of the rich and multinational companies and the likes of rich Russian oligarchs and the likes of Sic Ghilip Greens of this country.

I'd prefer to be supporting a Labour government that was addressing this, but that seems a long way off

.
Do you mean in time or because you don't think the Labour party seeks the good of all the people of the country.

Regardless of all that, I am democratic at heart and will go with the choice the people make. There is no higher authority, unless you believe in God.

When democracy has been trampled in the dirt by liars such as Farage,Johnson,Fox,Reece Mogg and the other brexit parties and has been proven beyond doubt,I conclude that democracy is bought and sold as a commodity by the rich to use to suit themselves.In short you've been sold a micky.
As for God,the only God in such peoples minds is money and profit,people don't matter much when the get in the way of such higher priorities.

YVMV,mine won't but eagerly awaite your solution

NOTE:-As I type I'm hearing of the latest exorbitant rail fare increases.
And learning on the news of the military selling off it's housing stock on the understanding that it rents them back whether empty or not,12,000 homes currently lie empty up and down the country

EDITED for typos and greater clarity

[mjr]

NOTE:-As I type I'm hearing of the latest exorbitant rail fare increases.
And learning on the news of the military selling off it's housing stock on the understanding that it rents them back whether empty or not,12,000 homes currently lie empty up and down the country

Not only that, but the BBC report strongly implied that security and upkeep of the fabric of the buildings is at the taxpayers' expense too, despite renting! Who is negotiating these deals for the government? The same people we're hoping will negotiate great trade deals after Brexit?

[pete75]

NOTE:-As I type I'm hearing of the latest exorbitant rail fare increases.
And learning on the news of the military selling off it's housing stock on the understanding that it rents them back whether empty or not,12,000 homes currently lie empty up and down the country

The MOD sold them off in 1996 to a company called Annington Property. Over 50,000 houses and then agreed to leaseback for 200 years. Apparently it's lost the taxpayer over 4 billion pounds. It's now paying 178 million a year to rent house sit sold for 1.66 billion. In other words 10 years worth of rent will be more than it sold the properties for. The MOD agreed to full repairing rents back in 1996. The initial rent deal gave the MOD an over 50% reduction on market rents for the first 25 years. That comes to an end in 2021 when there will be a rent review and Annington will be at liberty to charge full market rents so that 178 million may well become 370 million per annum.
https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/report- ... -sold-off/

[reohn2]

The corruption doesn't get any better does it?
Or as someone might say,you couldn't make it up!

[pete75]

The corruption doesn't get any better does it?
Or as someone might say,you couldn't make it up!

On a more minor scale it's little different to what happened to state assets after the end of the Soviet Union.