Democracy?

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ambodach
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Democracy?

Postby ambodach » 28 Nov 2018, 12:27pm

The Prime Minister of the UK is today in Scotland to promote her Brexit fantasy. There is to be a press conference in an apparently secret location at which reporters from any pro Scottish independence newspaper are barred. Only those who will not ask awkward questions and who will also publish suitably sycophantic reports are allowed. Democracy?
The proposed Leaders Debate where both are in favour of Brexit seems also a bit of a fix.

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horizon
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Re: Democracy?

Postby horizon » 28 Nov 2018, 2:17pm

The Scottish situation always fascinates me as nearly every criticism that is levelled at the EU applies equally to the UK if you live in Scotland. Quite what the Scots feel about the UK superstate and having to have open borders with lack of control, a common currency and a common army I'm not sure. But if the supporters of brexit really believe what they say about the EU they should at least be consistent and campaign to allow Scotland its freedom from this centralised, dominant, bureaucratic monolith known as the UK.

Note: Brexit is normally spelt with a capital "B" but the forum software has altered my post.
Let's just get Brexit done so that we can get on with the important job of re-joining the EU!

reohn2
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Re: Democracy?

Postby reohn2 » 28 Nov 2018, 8:06pm

Theresa May and the Tories are hanging onto power with their fingernails,how long before they lose their grip is anyone's guess but it's coming,and not soon enough.
How long the pretence can be kept up that they're not a spent force is also anyone's guess but the party will implode pretty soon IMO.
Last edited by reohn2 on 29 Nov 2018, 3:20pm, edited 1 time in total.
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NATURAL ANKLING
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Re: Democracy?

Postby NATURAL ANKLING » 29 Nov 2018, 11:47am

Hi,
Longer than you think.
IF labour (Corbie "ThisMorning" TV now) now say they will go for r2 if they cant force a GE. (might be saying that if there a NO deal?)

And their leader now says if they get into power they will go for a customs union......................and a transition period............another two years, not sure even the EU will tolerate any more negotiations.

So labours says (Corbie)
R2 If not then-
GE
Negotiate for a customs union.

before march 31st :lol:
If You Don't Try You Don't Do.....Don't Do You Don't Get...I'm Still Trying....Well Very..
You'll Find Me At The Top Of A Hill...............Somewhere...After Dark..

reohn2
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Re: Democracy?

Postby reohn2 » 29 Nov 2018, 4:07pm

NATURAL ANKLING wrote:Hi,
Longer than you think.
IF labour (Corbie "ThisMorning" TV now) now say they will go for r2 if they cant force a GE. (might be saying that if there a NO deal?)

And their leader now says if they get into power they will go for a customs union......................and a transition period............another two years, not sure even the EU will tolerate any more negotiations.

So labours says (Corbie)
R2 If not then-
GE
Negotiate for a customs union.

before march 31st :lol:

In you're posts you think brexit is the answer to the country's problems.
The country is on a knife edge,it was split down the middle in 2016 on the issue,that was before most people(myself included to an extent)realised just how complicated and protracted brexit would be,however one thing I was sure of and which even the most ardent of brexit campaigners agree now,is that the country will suffer as a result,how much and for how long varies in the predictions of these supporters of brexit.
I conclude that,even by these supporters of brexit predictions,the country is in a dire and precarious position.

If,as you seem to yearn for,a hard brexit happens,the country will fall into the abyss of no trade deals and will truly be an island,isolated and at the mercy of whoever has no mercy.
You may think that a good position to be in.
I don't.
Your poke at Corbyn is understandable from your position,but without being a member of the customs union we're sunk,and to want a second referendum seems logical in the current turmoil the country finds itself in seeing as parliament has no spherics to implement what it knows to be the right desicion ie;stop the madness and remain in the EU.
A GE may well happen soon or not at all.
But please don't ever think the country isn't in dire straights currently because it is.

One further point.
Yourself and no other supporter of brexit has yet given a single good reason for leaving the EU that hasn't been totally disproven time and again on the other thread and elsewhere.
It seems to me your reason for leaving and preference for a hard brexit(something you've claimed previously)is that you simply don't like the EU,which to me equates to not liking the nose on you face,taking a sharp knife and cutting it off,disfiguring yourself and then staring into a mirror watching intently at you examine your self inflicted disfigurement as you slowly bleed to death in the hope someone may intervene and help.
You may claim that's a ridiculous POV and that all will be well and rosey in the garden at some time in the future or that you will grow a new and better nose,or maybe you think being poor and disheveled with no friends is worth it for taking back control,control that the UK already has but without your knowledge.

"No man is an island,entire of itself;every man is a piece of the continent"
John Donne
The same applies to countries and more so in a global economy,unfortunately too many people labour under the false belief in the opposite,those believers tend to be supporters of brexit........
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Flinders
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Re: Democracy?

Postby Flinders » 29 Nov 2018, 7:28pm

reohn2 wrote:
NATURAL ANKLING wrote:Hi,
Longer than you think.
IF labour (Corbie "ThisMorning" TV now) now say they will go for r2 if they cant force a GE. (might be saying that if there a NO deal?)

And their leader now says if they get into power they will go for a customs union......................and a transition period............another two years, not sure even the EU will tolerate any more negotiations.

So labours says (Corbie)
R2 If not then-
GE
Negotiate for a customs union.

before march 31st :lol:

In you're posts you think brexit is the answer to the country's problems.
The country is on a knife edge,it was split down the middle in 2016 on the issue,that was before most people(myself included to an extent)realised just how complicated and protracted brexit would be,however one thing I was sure of and which even the most ardent of brexit campaigners agree now,is that the country will suffer as a result,how much and for how long varies in the predictions of these supporters of brexit.
I conclude that,even by these supporters of brexit predictions,the country is in a dire and precarious position.

If,as you seem to yearn for,a hard brexit happens,the country will fall into the abyss of no trade deals and will truly be an island,isolated and at the mercy of whoever has no mercy.
You may think that a good position to be in.
I don't.
Your poke at Corbyn is understandable from your position,but without being a member of the customs union we're sunk,and to want a second referendum seems logical in the current turmoil the country finds itself in seeing as parliament has no spherics to implement what it knows to be the right desicion ie;stop the madness and remain in the EU.
A GE may well happen soon or not at all.
But please don't ever think the country isn't in dire straights currently because it is.

One further point.
Yourself and no other supporter of brexit has yet given a single good reason for leaving the EU that hasn't been totally disproven time and again on the other thread and elsewhere.
It seems to me your reason for leaving and preference for a hard brexit(something you've claimed previously)is that you simply don't like the EU,which to me equates to not liking the nose on you face,taking a sharp knife and cutting it off,disfiguring yourself and then staring into a mirror watching intently at you examine your self inflicted disfigurement as you slowly bleed to death in the hope someone may intervene and help.
You may claim that's a ridiculous POV and that all will be well and rosey in the garden at some time in the future or that you will grow a new and better nose,or maybe you think being poor and disheveled with no friends is worth it for taking back control,control that the UK already has but without your knowledge.

"No man is an island,entire of itself;every man is a piece of the continent"
John Donne
The same applies to countries and more so in a global economy,unfortunately too many people labour under the false belief in the opposite,those believers tend to be supporters of brexit........


In sober earnest, seldom have I read a post anywhere that I agreed with more than I do with yours, reohn2. :|

francovendee
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Re: Democracy?

Postby francovendee » 30 Nov 2018, 7:43am

reohn2, You've got it spot on. I'm just unclear how we go about clearing up the mess the country has got itself into.

Oldjohnw
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Re: Democracy?

Postby Oldjohnw » 30 Nov 2018, 8:51am

One irony is that older people (like me, although I voted remain) will be unlikely to live to the utopian future that was predicted. Pretty well every authority talks in terms of at least 15 years before so-called benefits can be reaped.

What a mess. Rarely has the world witness such determined national self-harm.

And I still await learning which laws Westminster cannot make.
John

Cycling and recycling

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Cugel
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Re: Democracy?

Postby Cugel » 30 Nov 2018, 11:30am

Oldjohnw wrote:One irony is that older people (like me, although I voted remain) will be unlikely to live to the utopian future that was predicted. Pretty well every authority talks in terms of at least 15 years before so-called benefits can be reaped.

What a mess. Rarely has the world witness such determined national self-harm.

And I still await learning which laws Westminster cannot make.

The common or garden supporter of brexit is a myopic beast, particularly when it comes to the examples of elsewhere and elsewhen concerning how bad a broken society can get; and how quickly. The myopia is perhaps that of a rather under-developed consciousness, like that of an infant who knows only it's wants of the moment and will sulk, screech, pout and wail if frustrated.

In fact, here is a nice little article elaborating on the syndrome:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... -crisis-uk

I've thought for some years now that our modern society and it's cultural armatures have tended towards and reached a state of general infantilism. We are all spoilt brats, to one degree or another (and I don't exclude myself). We kick and scream against nanny "until we are sick" Consequences? Nanny will deal with them, somehow, despite our kicks and bites at her.

I've an awful feeling in my water that we in Blighty are in for something of a nasty shock - or a series of them, as various parts of the social support structures we all rely on collapse into heaps of rubble. What will be first? Disappearing and shrinking incomes are already here. The NHS is under siege. The criminal justice system has gone over some sort of cusp into a state where crime is now increasing and access to justice is impossible for all but the very well-off. .......

Reohn and others have asked our own wee clot of supporters of brexit what their reasons for voting Leave were - many times. As he notes, the answers are few and can be summed up as, "Because I don't like or want the EU" with never a reason why other than, "Because I don't, so there". These revolutionaries seem oblivious or uncaring about the ever-more obvious and probably dire consequences for everyone in Blighty, including themselves. Astonishing attitude, that, in fellows supposedly adult.

I don't doubt there are cogent and well thought-out reasons for rejecting the EU. There are no doubt supporters of brexit who have made for themselves a serious and mature case weighing the pros and cons. But they seem rare as hen's teeth.

Cugel, going over my own hysteresis cusp from optimism to pessimism.
Last edited by Cugel on 30 Nov 2018, 11:38am, edited 1 time in total.

brynpoeth
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Re: Democracy?

Postby brynpoeth » 30 Nov 2018, 11:36am

Infantilism is the wrong word and an insult to children :wink:

'Stupid', 'ignorant', 'bigoted', 'uninformed' might be appropriate

Get your thesaurus out Cugel, there you can find six suitable words before brecwast
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Cugel
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Re: Democracy?

Postby Cugel » 30 Nov 2018, 11:41am

brynpoeth wrote:Infantilism is the wrong word and an insult to children :wink:

'Stupid', 'ignorant', 'bigoted', 'uninformed' might be appropriate

Get your thesaurus out Cugel, there you can find six suitable words before brecwast

I often go a-hunting-oh for a synonym (also the odd exotic antonym). I would also like to employ several of the esoteric terms I find in, for example, Jack Vance novels, where the language employed is often "high". However, no one (not even moi) wants to be thought of as a clever-booger, especially as I'm not.

Cugel

pwa
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Re: Democracy?

Postby pwa » 30 Nov 2018, 12:01pm

brynpoeth wrote:Infantilism is the wrong word and an insult to children :wink:

'Stupid', 'ignorant', 'bigoted', 'uninformed' might be appropriate

Get your thesaurus out Cugel, there you can find six suitable words before brecwast

My sister-in-law is visiting tonight. She has lived in Germany for about forty years and though she still thinks of herself as British she does have opinions and ways of expressing herself that are very German. She describes Brexit as "stew-pid", but she applies the same word to a bewildering number of things and people, including cyclists who get in her way when she is driving home. Better, I think, to try to understand other opinions even if you don't ultimately agree with them. People are likely to stop talking to you if you constantly tell them their views are stupid. I may drink more than usual tonight.:wink:

brynpoeth
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Re: Democracy?

Postby brynpoeth » 30 Nov 2018, 12:10pm

pwa wrote:
brynpoeth wrote:Infantilism is the wrong word and an insult to children :wink:

'Stupid', 'ignorant', 'bigoted', 'uninformed' might be appropriate

Get your thesaurus out Cugel, there you can find six suitable words before brecwast

My sister-in-law is visiting tonight. She has lived in Germany for about forty years and though she still thinks of herself as British she does have opinions and ways of expressing herself that are very German. She describes Brexit as "stew-pid", but she applies the same word to a bewildering number of things and people, including cyclists who get in her way when she is driving home. Better, I think, to try to understand other opinions even if you don't ultimately agree with them. People are likely to stop talking to you if you constantly tell them their views are stupid. I may drink more than usual tonight.:wink:

She overcame her inneren Schweinhund* to visit Wales, +1

* 'Schweinhund' has a different meaning in German, you could ask her to explain. In your shoes I would try to confuse her by talking Welsh :wink:
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Cycling-of course, but it is far better on a Gillott
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pwa
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Re: Democracy?

Postby pwa » 30 Nov 2018, 12:14pm

brynpoeth wrote:
pwa wrote:
brynpoeth wrote:Infantilism is the wrong word and an insult to children :wink:

'Stupid', 'ignorant', 'bigoted', 'uninformed' might be appropriate

Get your thesaurus out Cugel, there you can find six suitable words before brecwast

My sister-in-law is visiting tonight. She has lived in Germany for about forty years and though she still thinks of herself as British she does have opinions and ways of expressing herself that are very German. She describes Brexit as "stew-pid", but she applies the same word to a bewildering number of things and people, including cyclists who get in her way when she is driving home. Better, I think, to try to understand other opinions even if you don't ultimately agree with them. People are likely to stop talking to you if you constantly tell them their views are stupid. I may drink more than usual tonight.:wink:

She overcame her inneren Schweinhund* to visit Wales, +1

* 'Schweinhund' has a different meaning in German, you could ask her to explain. In your shoes I would try to confuse her by talking Welsh :wink:

I don't want to stress you, but she thinks that's stupid too. :lol: I will be keeping any opinions to myself while she's here.

pete75
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Re: Democracy?

Postby pete75 » 30 Nov 2018, 12:19pm

pwa wrote:
brynpoeth wrote:Infantilism is the wrong word and an insult to children :wink:

'Stupid', 'ignorant', 'bigoted', 'uninformed' might be appropriate

Get your thesaurus out Cugel, there you can find six suitable words before brecwast

My sister-in-law is visiting tonight. She has lived in Germany for about forty years and though she still thinks of herself as British she does have opinions and ways of expressing herself that are very German. She describes Brexit as "stew-pid", but she applies the same word to a bewildering number of things and people, including cyclists who get in her way when she is driving home. Better, I think, to try to understand other opinions even if you don't ultimately agree with them. People are likely to stop talking to you if you constantly tell them their views are stupid. I may drink more than usual tonight.:wink:


You should be telling her she shouldn't be there. She's adding to Germany's housing needs, road and rail congestion, loss of green spaces, would work for a lower wage because she's from a poorer country etc etc And didn't you say your own father came here from Ireland to do those very things you abhor? :twisted: