Lake District - protect in aspic for visitors?

[Tangled Metal]

https://amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/nov/30/zip-wire-lake-district-honister-pass

This article by a bloke called Jenkins is about a development in Honister, Lake District that's been approved. His disapproval sounds like a tourist insisting a working land be preserved in some picture perfect version for the enjoyment of visitors. I couldn't disagree more with his sentiments and opinions.

The lake district is a working region and always has been. There isn't a natural part of it anymore. Whether it's hill farming, mining, quarrying or forestry it is all artificial and man made. What the protectionists are wanting is to freeze development to that of the era of Wordsworth.

Well I doubt that will work in the long term. Hill farming is the acceptable face of industry to these people. But that industry is scraping along on subsidies. The wool of the sheep (main crop with their meat I guess) costs more to shear than the farmer gets but they have to do it for welfare reasons. Without subsidy and other development / industries the lake District will struggle long term.

This development is using existing quarrying / mining infrastructure. A working slate mine subsidised by tourism. This zip wire adds to existing adventure tourism activities. It runs from below the skyline across a crag face (old quarry face) down to the centre already there. It's probably not going to be that obvious.

Other point to make is that there's not many paths actually in the Honister pass. They mostly leave it to go to the hills either side. TBH there's not many points it'll be overlooked I think.

Anyway what do you think?

[Tangled Metal]

PS the lake district once had a mining industry that was bigger than any other industry in the district. Even bigger than farming. It's an industrial landscape. It just happens that one of the industries create a kind of beauty.

Also the guardian opinion columnist raised a zip wire in Wales. However Wales has several rail lines going into the national park even right up the hills. If he wants to argue the destroying the natural beauty card then let's see him fighting to get the railway up Snowdon removed first. That'll remove a lot bigger vandalism on a national park!

Sorry for my rants. The columnist sounds like a London centric person who cares not one jot for anyone. He should stick to writing about his local area IMHO. He's ignorant of the lake district's needs.

[Cyril Haearn]

Thanks for reminding me of the Loch District, got some pictures in my head

What exactly is a zip wire please?

[Ben@Forest]

Anyway what do you think?

If you've been following the news there you'll know they rejected a zip wire over Thirlmere reservoir a few months ago so l suspect allowing one at Honister is a move to demonstrate they are not anti-development.

I don't think Jenkins mentions that in his article but l bet he knows about it - he was chairman of the National Trust so l think his knowledge of these matters is informed if skewed.

However the LD has real, real problems with vehicle traffic which may lead to some 'unthinkable' solutions in 10 years or so. So in the future to get to the zip wire might be by bus or bike only!

[Cyril Haearn]

Unthinkable? More railways!

[Paulatic]

https://amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/nov/30/zip-wire-lake-district-honister-pass



Hill farming is the acceptable face of industry to these people. But that industry is scraping along on subsidies. .

Anyway what do you think?

Scraping along...for years they had a huge advantage over the rest of us. LD farmers were given a lot of money to awaywinter sheep. Here in SW Scotland we lost a lot of traditional wintering spots to Cumbrian sheep or stump up a lot of money to compete.

[Cunobelin]

Anyway what do you think?

If you've been following the news there you'll know they rejected a zip wire over Thirlmere reservoir a few months ago so l suspect allowing one at Honister is a move to demonstrate they are not anti-development.

I don't think Jenkins mentions that in his article but l bet he knows about it - he was chairman of the National Trust so l think his knowledge of these matters is informed if skewed.

However the LD has real, real problems with vehicle traffic which may lead to some 'unthinkable' solutions in 10 years or so. So in the future to get to the zip wire might be by bus or bike only!

He did mention it:

If the case for Honister is lost, I cannot see the legal basis for a national park refusing any money-making application, not least the outrageous eight-lane zip wire recently proposed over Thirlmere. Intended for “high-octane tourists”, this was stopped only after the RAF claimed it might interfere with its low-flying bombers. The issue was not of beauty, but of one desecration being used to override another.

This has a lot more to it than meets the eye or is in the article.

The Via Ferrata and Zipwire have been refused permission on environmental grounds for damaging rare environments and other reasons for the last ten years to my knowledge.

[horizon]

So the Lake District is a protected landscape. That's it really. Of course, if you want to unbundle the whole idea of landscape and its protection, well I'm all ears but it's going to take a long time. In the meantime, I would recommend that you simply go and enjoy it, on foot of course.

[Ben@Forest]

He did mention it:

If the case for Honister is lost, I cannot see the legal basis for a national park refusing any money-making application, not least the outrageous eight-lane zip wire recently proposed over Thirlmere. Intended for “high-octane tourists”, this was stopped only after the RAF claimed it might interfere with its low-flying bombers. The issue was not of beauty, but of one desecration being used to override another.

Glad to see he did!. Reading on phone so missed it. I do know that when the Thirlmere Zipwire was pulled the company involved put out a statement saying that owing to the strength of local objections they wouldn't try to apply again. Hadn't heard the RAF bit at all.

[Flinders]

I heard the RAF thing. I do wonder if that was partly a clincher to save other faces, but the RAF do a lot of low-flying in the area. I've not seen them round Thirlmere as it happens, I've seen them mostly around Buttermere, but I spend less time round Thirlmere and it could be an 'escape route' even if it's not routinely used.

I wasn't keen on the Thirlmere project as a general principle, but tried to keep an open mind. However, I went well and truly off it when I investigated the claims being made about it not going to be very visible. It seemed to me that they were trying to minimise the issue of the visual impact to the extent that they, well, *cough* crossed a line. Space and perspective is what I do. And I did not like how it was being presented, let me put it that way.

Honister, well, I don't know enough about that specific one to say. But a lot of walkers do go right up the mine track to the Drum House, and up Dale Head immediately across the pass. Whatever gets done there, a heck of a lot of people walking and cycling round there will have to look at it. What's there now is no problem as far as I'm concerned, it's not intrusive, and I like to see local businesses do well. In my 40-odd years of going up to the lakes, I have noticed a lot of local businesses/museums/places to visit disappearing- there is now little to do for families if it rains, for example. And things like the via ferrata, which don't intrude visually or aurally but people seem to enjoy a lot, seem like a good idea. But you always have to be careful that one thing doesn't automatically lead to another, and then you suddenly realise it's all gone too far and you can't stop it.

[Ben@Forest]

So the Lake District is a protected landscape. That's it really. Of course, if you want to unbundle the whole idea of landscape and its protection, well I'm all ears but it's going to take a long time. In the meantime, I would recommend that you simply go and enjoy it, on foot of course.

The issue, as the OP refers to, is that all our protected landscapes (or at least all those in England) were and are working landscapes. Some were very industrial - the North Pennines AONB was extensively mined for decades, people drive, cycle or walk past heaps of now vegetated overburden or spoil with no idea it isn't a natural feature.

[Cunobelin]

To my mind this is all about the definition of "worked"

To continue with mining, farming and the likes is historical, and indeed has formed much of the landscape that we know

The question is whether the zipwire and similar are part of that, or something new and unknown?

Having said that there was a rope version of the zip wire here previously

[Cyril Haearn]

Surely the zip wires (whatever they are) could be put in underground caverns

[pete75]

The main industry of the Lake District now is tourism. The landscape and scenery in the Lake District is unique in England and is it's main asset in attracting tourists. This zipwire thing could go anywhere and somewhere near a motorway would be ideal maybe on former pit heaps - the sort from collieries not Lake District mines or perhaps as a new Alton Towers attraction.

[horizon]

So the Lake District is a protected landscape. That's it really. Of course, if you want to unbundle the whole idea of landscape and its protection, well I'm all ears but it's going to take a long time. In the meantime, I would recommend that you simply go and enjoy it, on foot of course.

The issue, as the OP refers to, is that all our protected landscapes (or at least all those in England) were and are working landscapes. Some were very industrial - the North Pennines AONB was extensively mined for decades, people drive, cycle or walk past heaps of now vegetated overburden or spoil with no idea it isn't a natural feature.

The point I'm making is that a protected landscape is full of contradictions and ironies. It is also full of conflicts and differing priorities. Yes, you can argue about these things but the zipwire cannot be the starting point - it is the end point. When I say, don't go there, I don't mean the Lake District, I mean the whole concept - it is fraught from beginning to end. So unless you are willing to put your entire world view on the table and open it up for discussion, it isn't worth talking about. Politely I would say to the OP that the Lake District has different meanings. But to others I would just say "get over it". As soon as you try to simplify it, you betray your ignorance. I think it might be better to accept the Lake District as a Good Thing and get on with more important things in your life.

This sounds rather harsh, especially as the OP actually makes a good point that I can acknowledge. But go into it all more deeply and you probably come out at the same point: that the zipwire decision is at the margins and defines where we are. Having a protected landscape will involve all sorts of seemingly nonsensical decisions and sacrificing lots of possibilities. But what you end up with is something called the Lake District. But if you aren't happy with that, we can now start talking about the meaning and symbolism of landscape, about vested interests, shared culture, the significance of history, land ownership, rural economics, changing leisure, class privilege, climate change, the importance of poetry, our relationship to Nature, industrial archaeology and access rights. Or perhaps not. Like I said, don't go there is the best advice I can give. Pandora's Box is the phrase we are looking for.

NB All references to "you" imply "one" and not any person on this forum.