Climate change

[Cannavaro66]

Do we think the human race is capable of,if not stopping it,then minimising it?
Bearing in mind we haven't done much to prevent it happening so far,seemingly preferring profit than anything else first.
Or are we so near a tipping point that when reached it's catastrophic effects can't be undone.

I don't think it's totally out of control, it's not something we can't overcome. At least we can minimise it as you said. The thing is, all of us should take responsibility and try to find a way out. I am an architect myself and constatly thinking about the problems related with our branch of activity. According to my researches there are a lot of new technologies, eco-friendly investments which can minimise major problems related with building trade (e.g. https://tranio.com/articles/building-gr ... conomical/). Although people generally consider these kind of projects as a threat for real estate market and enemy of investors, it's a self-sacrifice that we should make. I love nature, I love cycling in nature, and I want my children to exprience this. So I think if we all want our children to expreince it either, we should all criticize ourselves, find suitable technologies and follow eco-friendly investments for a way out.

[NUKe]

There are some positives. Rentable energies are growing and becoming cheaper, Europe is embracing more and more wind and solar technologies. Despite the proliferation of power stations being built in China, the Chinese government is not switching them on, youngster are turning away from cars.shame the older ones seam to use them so much.

[Lance Dopestrong]

To answer the OP...

No.

And...

No.

Most people would die rather than walk half a mile, and that's exactly what will happen.

[pwa]

There are some positives. Rentable energies are growing and becoming cheaper, Europe is embracing more and more wind and solar technologies. Despite the proliferation of power stations being built in China, the Chinese government is not switching them on, youngster are turning away from cars.shame the older ones seam to use them so much.

But why is atmospheric CO2 still going up? And if that is in spite of new coal fired power stations not being switched on, what happens when they are? What the Chinese do dwarfs any improvements we are able to make here, and the Chinese are building a future based on coal.

At some point, when it is too late, tariffs will be put on imported goods based on their carbon footprint, with goods from China as a prime target.

[roubaixtuesday]

... the Chinese are building a future based on coal.

In the UK, roughly a quarter of electricity is generated from renewables.

In China, roughly a quarter of electricity is generated from renewables.

This despite the outsourcing of UK manufacturing to China.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renewable_energy_in_China

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renewable ... ed_Kingdom

[pwa]

... the Chinese are building a future based on coal.

In the UK, roughly a quarter of electricity is generated from renewables.

In China, roughly a quarter of electricity is generated from renewables.

This despite the outsourcing of UK manufacturing to China.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renewable_energy_in_China

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renewable ... ed_Kingdom

The UK is moving in the right direction having started almost completely reliant on coal. Still a long way to go but moving the right way. China is still building up coal based electricity production. China is going in the wrong direction and is hugely more significant than the UK. It is too late in the day for the world to have its most populous nation go through an era of rapid development based on dirty twentieth century technology. The atmosphere is not fair and it won't wait for the Chinese to just do what we did a century ago. We all need to be moving in the right direction now, not twenty years from now.

[roubaixtuesday]

China is going in the wrong direction and is hugely more significant than the UK.

The proportion of Chinese energy from renewables is the same as the UKs and is rising fast.

I'm not sure how this is "the wrong direction". Neither am I sure how given this, it's possible to point the finger at China, as our own performance is similar.

[edited to repair quote]

[reohn2]

To answer the OP...

No.

And...

No.

Most people would die rather than walk half a mile, and that's exactly what will happen.

I you could be right.

[reohn2]

<blockquote>China is going in the wrong direction and is hugely more significant than the UK.</blockquote>

The proportion of Chinese energy from renewables is the same as the UKs and is rising fast.

I'm not sure how this is "the wrong direction". Neither am I sure how given this, it's possible to point the finger at China, as our own performance is similar.

And this government withdrew it's subsidised to renewables.

We can only influence by setting an example and by not importing that,such as wear once clothing and cheap plastic consumables.

[pwa]

China is going in the wrong direction and is hugely more significant than the UK.

The proportion of Chinese energy from renewables is the same as the UKs and is rising fast.

I'm not sure how this is "the wrong direction". Neither am I sure how given this, it's possible to point the finger at China, as our own performance is similar.

[edited to repair quote]

Are you saying that the proportion of Chinese electricity produced from low carbon sources is rising, so that coal and gas are falling as a proportion of the total? Are you talking about a large proportion being low carbon or a small proportion? I had the impression that in the last year or so coal fired power had stepped up in China as a new wave of stations came online.

Electricity production infrastructure is like a supertanker that is very slow to change direction. China's continued rapid building of coal fired power stations is for coal burning in future decades. That translates as CO2 production increasing in future decades. Not stable, increasing. I know they are only doing what we did a century ago but we now know what a mistake was and we are to tolerate them making the same mistake on an even bigger scale because it is fair. We messed up, so now it is their turn.

Our supertanker has slowed and is gradually starting to turn the corner. China's has only just been launched and is still accelerating in the wrong direction. They need to stop building coal fired power stations now, not ten years from now. For their own sake as much as anyone else's. What counts here is total carbon emissions and we have started to get a grip on ours. China's are soaring. Not as much as if they had not built up renewables too, but soaring all the same. That is where the world's big growth in electricity production is occurring and we should be concerned. Whilst working on our own carbon emissions.

[Cugel]

<blockquote>China is going in the wrong direction and is hugely more significant than the UK.</blockquote>

The proportion of Chinese energy from renewables is the same as the UKs and is rising fast.

I'm not sure how this is "the wrong direction". Neither am I sure how given this, it's possible to point the finger at China, as our own performance is similar.

And this government withdrew it's subsidised to renewables.

We can only influence by setting an example and by not importing that,such as wear once clothing and cheap plastic consumables.

When letting my imagination run rife - usually a pleasure but fraught with the danger of wandering from utopia to dystopia - I like to picture humans who have somehow lost that capacity resident within our human nature for being evil on many scales from "a teeny bit" to full-blown Adolf. Civilisation would not only be resilient but improving to the benefit of all, including the wider biosphere. Alas, this is a fantasy of Steven Pinker proportions. The "better angels of our nature" will always be accompanied by those devils portrayed by Dr Jekyll when he has reverted to being Mr Hyde.

We will all continue to be all too human, even me & thee! We will continue with our highly damaging modern habits, ever-amplified by the progress in technology. For every new vaccine or crop-enhancer there will be a nastier weapon of mass destruction; a more effective propaganda horn blasting out fear; a whole series of consumer pleasures that cost the Earth, even if they are only 99p each in the shop. Even the vaccines and the crop-enhancers will have dire side effects, such as the vast increase in consume-mad human populations across the planet.

We control nothing, least of all ourselves. We are delusional about our abilities to exert self-control and about our ability to make effective plans that result only in the intended and good consequences. In fact, we've had it.

As a boomer I accept the responsibility and the guilt. Yet despite feeble attempts to change my ways, it'll be ineffective as I won't change them enough and others will not change theirs at all.

Cugel

[kwackers]

Our supertanker has slowed and is gradually starting to turn the corner. China's has only just been launched and is still accelerating in the wrong direction. They need to stop building coal fired power stations now, not ten years from now. For their own sake as much as anyone else's. What counts here is total carbon emissions and we have started to get a grip on ours. China's are soaring. Not as much as if they had not built up renewables too, but soaring all the same. That is where the world's big growth in electricity production is occurring and we should be concerned. Whilst working on our own carbon emissions.

I'd suggest you do a bit of reading about China's power stations. They're not actually needed, they're more about creating employment and are driven at local government level.
China outspends us considerably on investment in green energy and that despite coming from a lower per capita energy use.

China like all developing countries aspires the level of wealth we enjoy in the west.
The old cry of "do as I say, no as I do" is hardly going to change that. We need to improve our green credentials and stop worrying about what other countries are doing - they're a red herring used only as an excuse for us to avoid doing anything.

[roubaixtuesday]

Chinese coal consumption is generally believed to be at or close to its peak.

See, for example:

https://www.brookings.edu/2018/01/22/ch ... as-peaked/

Of course, predictions are hard, particularly those about the future.

[pwa]

Our supertanker has slowed and is gradually starting to turn the corner. China's has only just been launched and is still accelerating in the wrong direction. They need to stop building coal fired power stations now, not ten years from now. For their own sake as much as anyone else's. What counts here is total carbon emissions and we have started to get a grip on ours. China's are soaring. Not as much as if they had not built up renewables too, but soaring all the same. That is where the world's big growth in electricity production is occurring and we should be concerned. Whilst working on our own carbon emissions.

I'd suggest you do a bit of reading about China's power stations. They're not actually needed, they're more about creating employment and are driven at local government level.
China outspends us considerably on investment in green energy and that despite coming from a lower per capita energy use.

China like all developing countries aspires the level of wealth we enjoy in the west.
The old cry of "do as I say, no as I do" is hardly going to change that. We need to improve our green credentials and stop worrying about what other countries are doing - they're a red herring used only as an excuse for us to avoid doing anything.

Only a few days ago we were being told that CO2 levels had begun rising at a higher rate than predicted and the cause was being cited as increased coal burning in China. Was that wrong?

I don't blame the Chinese personally for this, but industrial production has been concentrated there and that is where carbon emissions are increasing fastest. recent increases of ozone depleting gases have also been traced to China. So we have to deal with this as a species, trans nationally, and get Chinese energy production sorted so that it doesn't undo improvements made elsewhere.

[Cugel]

.........
I don't blame the Chinese personally for this, but industrial production has been concentrated there and that is where carbon emissions are increasing fastest. recent increases of ozone depleting gases have also been traced to China. So we have to deal with this as a species, trans nationally, and get Chinese energy production sorted so that it doesn't undo improvements made elsewhere.

I emphasised your remark about the trans-nationalist action/solution. What would it take to achieve? More than we humans are capable of, by a very long yardstick, I feel!

Nationalism is alive and thriving. In fact, it's spawning tribalism too - consider various political conditions in various nations such as the USA, UK and a dozen other large nations. They're fragmenting into ideological camps or even mini-nationalist camps. There's as much chance of a trans-national response to global warming activities as there Is of Esperanto becoming the lingua-franca.

But it's worse than that. Suppose there was a trans-national effort on which everyone were to agree; and that it was implemented. What chance do you think this effort will have of stopping global warming? What chance of this effort resulting only in the intended consequence and none of the unintended variety which, given the huge scope of the problem and any solution to it, are likely also to be huge?

It's comforting to believe that because we're a clever species and have invented so much clever technology that we can "fix this". The whole history of the Industrial Revolution is that we fixed many things (let's lump them together as "standard of living") but at an ever-more obvious and enormous price. A price that seems to get bigger every day. A price we will never be able to repay.

Cugel