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Re: Les 'gilets jaunes'

Posted: 3 Jan 2019, 8:41am
by merseymouth
Hi Pete75, I thought it was quite misplaced to take a pop at the French when they don military uniform. A more in depth investigation might lead you to a different conclusion.
Take WW1, at Verdun alone the death rate was comparable with the Somme, with only the French to fight it out! Had the French not had better heavy artillery capacity then the British would have suffered an even worse casualty rate at the Somme.
Sure the French moved a number of troops away from areas in Haig's big offensive, they went to reinforce troops at Verdun, but Verdun has a special place in the French psyche - the loss would have destroyed the morale of all French troops.
Cheap shots reduce the argument.
One other point concerning the possibility of Germans joining the Gilets Jaunes protest. Can't see them in yellow, more likely it will be Wermacht Grey, coming in through other countries, possibly Poland & Belgium if the follow their usual pattern?
Not a cheap shot, merely a revisiting of old ground. IGICB MM

Re: Les 'gilets jaunes'

Posted: 3 Jan 2019, 9:57am
by reohn2
Oh dear,here we go again :?

Re: Les 'gilets jaunes'

Posted: 3 Jan 2019, 10:18am
by pete75
merseymouth wrote:Hi Pete75, I thought it was quite misplaced to take a pop at the French when they don military uniform. A more in depth investigation might lead you to a different conclusion.
Take WW1, at Verdun alone the death rate was comparable with the Somme, with only the French to fight it out! Had the French not had better heavy artillery capacity then the British would have suffered an even worse casualty rate at the Somme.
Sure the French moved a number of troops away from areas in Haig's big offensive, they went to reinforce troops at Verdun, but Verdun has a special place in the French psyche - the loss would have destroyed the morale of all French troops.
Cheap shots reduce the argument.
One other point concerning the possibility of Germans joining the Gilets Jaunes protest. Can't see them in yellow, more likely it will be Wermacht Grey, coming in through other countries, possibly Poland & Belgium if the follow their usual pattern?
Not a cheap shot, merely a revisiting of old ground. IGICB MM



1870 Franco-Prussian war - Prussians defeated France in 6 months.

1914 France had the help of Britain and Russia and only just managed to stave off defeat. Had they been facing Germany alone the war really would have been over by Christmas.

I'm well aware of Verdun having read Alistair Horne's excellent book The Price Of Glory which I bought in the bookshop at Fort Douaumont. France wasn't fighting alone as it wasn't the only front Germany had to fight on. They were also fighting on the Somme and against the Russians on the eastern front. France were putting almost every ounce of their military effort into Verdun and barely managed to hold on. Had the Germans been able to put almost all their military effort into the battle France would have been defeated fairly quickly.

1940 Germany defeated France in a few weeks.

Hardly cheap shots.

Germany is currently a less militaristic country than France, Britain or Poland. Politicians in other countries are complaining they're not militaristic enough and should have bigger, more expensive armed forces. In addition they are in the same military alliance as Poland and Belgium so hardly likely to invade them. It also seems rather odd that you're opposed to the EU an institution which came into being partly to stop wars between European nations. Your last paragraph certainly is a cheap shot.

Re: Les 'gilets jaunes'

Posted: 3 Jan 2019, 11:16am
by Oldjohnw
One other point concerning the possibility of Germans joining the Gilets Jaunes protest. Can't see them in yellow, more likely it will be Wermacht Grey, coming in through other countries, possibly Poland & Belgium if the follow their usual pattern?


Pretty disgraceful stuff. As if true blue blooded Brits had much to be proud of in their colonial past. Invading counties, imposing laws and religion, severely and cruelly punishing anyone objecting. As recently as my grandfather's time. Quite apart from modern day Iraq, Libya and goodness knows where else.

The EU was set up to counter these tendencies: the benefits are there for all to see and enjoy: primarily the longest time of peace between nations ever.

Re: Les 'gilets jaunes'

Posted: 3 Jan 2019, 11:25am
by Canuk
Oldjohnw wrote:
One other point concerning the possibility of Germans joining the Gilets Jaunes protest. Can't see them in yellow, more likely it will be Wermacht Grey, coming in through other countries, possibly Poland & Belgium if the follow their usual pattern?


Pretty disgraceful stuff. As if true blue blooded Brits had much to be proud of in their colonial past. Invading counties, imposing laws and religion, severely and cruelly punishing anyone objecting. As recently as my grandfather's time. Quite apart from modern day Iraq, Libya and goodness knows where else.

The EU was set up to counter these tendencies: the benefits are there for all to see and enjoy: primarily the longest time of peace between nations ever.


Indeed. And a fragile and not guaranteed peace either. Its clear that Putin is eyeing which way Trump will jump in Syria, vis a vis the Russian presence. If he sees Trump as weak and insular and not willing to risk American lives, how long before he turns his eye to Europe.

And a divided Europe at that. How (and who) would stop the Russian tanks rolling back into former colonial countries like Hungary, Poland, Bulgaria and Czech Republic?

I can't see Trump lifting a finger to help Britain's interests.

Re: Les 'gilets jaunes'

Posted: 3 Jan 2019, 11:30am
by pwa
Canuk wrote:
Oldjohnw wrote:
One other point concerning the possibility of Germans joining the Gilets Jaunes protest. Can't see them in yellow, more likely it will be Wermacht Grey, coming in through other countries, possibly Poland & Belgium if the follow their usual pattern?


Pretty disgraceful stuff. As if true blue blooded Brits had much to be proud of in their colonial past. Invading counties, imposing laws and religion, severely and cruelly punishing anyone objecting. As recently as my grandfather's time. Quite apart from modern day Iraq, Libya and goodness knows where else.

The EU was set up to counter these tendencies: the benefits are there for all to see and enjoy: primarily the longest time of peace between nations ever.


Indeed. And a fragile and not guaranteed peace either. Its clear that Putin is eyeing which way Trump will jump in Syria, vis a vis the Russian presence. If he sees Trump as weak and insular and not willing to risk American lives, how long before he turns his eye to Europe.

And a divided Europe at that. How (and who) would stop the Russian tanks rolling back into former colonial countries like Hungary, Poland, Bulgaria and Czech Republic?

I can't see Trump lifting a finger to help Britain's interests.

Or Poland's, more to the point. Germany won't be much use to the Poles.

Re: Les 'gilets jaunes'

Posted: 3 Jan 2019, 11:41am
by Canuk
pwa wrote:
Canuk wrote:
Oldjohnw wrote:
Pretty disgraceful stuff. As if true blue blooded Brits had much to be proud of in their colonial past. Invading counties, imposing laws and religion, severely and cruelly punishing anyone objecting. As recently as my grandfather's time. Quite apart from modern day Iraq, Libya and goodness knows where else.

The EU was set up to counter these tendencies: the benefits are there for all to see and enjoy: primarily the longest time of peace between nations ever.


Indeed. And a fragile and not guaranteed peace either. Its clear that Putin is eyeing which way Trump will jump in Syria, vis a vis the Russian presence. If he sees Trump as weak and insular and not willing to risk American lives, how long before he turns his eye to Europe.

And a divided Europe at that. How (and who) would stop the Russian tanks rolling back into former colonial countries like Hungary, Poland, Bulgaria and Czech Republic?

I can't see Trump lifting a finger to help Britain's interests.

Or Poland's, more to the point. Germany won't be much use to the Poles.


I think if Putin had the resolve and the will to do so, he could walk through Europe in a week, with little or no resistance. Tanks and few tactical field Nukes and most countries would just roll over and play dead. More and more the current state of play in Europe feels like 1935. Everything lurching to the far right and no cohesion or effetive resistance to a threat.

Trump ditches Nato, special relationship evaporates. Then what? The complacency of the west I always find incredible. Like my old dad said, if a world war can happen once, twice then it can certainly occur again. A Europe divided is exactly what Putin wants. We're playing right into his war game nirvana.

Re: Les 'gilets jaunes'

Posted: 3 Jan 2019, 12:51pm
by mercalia
well since Putin is just a Russian mafiosis I think the above views are wrong. he isnt really interested in resurrecting the USSR just in stripping Russia of its ressources for personal use.

Re: Les 'gilets jaunes'

Posted: 3 Jan 2019, 1:14pm
by reohn2
Oldjohnw wrote:
One other point concerning the possibility of Germans joining the Gilets Jaunes protest. Can't see them in yellow, more likely it will be Wermacht Grey, coming in through other countries, possibly Poland & Belgium if the follow their usual pattern?


Pretty disgraceful stuff. As if true blue blooded Brits had much to be proud of in their colonial past. Invading counties, imposing laws and religion, severely and cruelly punishing anyone objecting. As recently as my grandfather's time. Quite apart from modern day Iraq, Libya and goodness knows where else.

The EU was set up to counter these tendencies: the benefits are there for all to see and enjoy: primarily the longest time of peace between nations ever.

Didn't you know you're not to post the bl@@ding obvious someone might be proved wrong in their xenophobic blatherings.

Re: Les 'gilets jaunes'

Posted: 3 Jan 2019, 1:19pm
by brynpoeth
80 years soon since the start of ww2, the media should write about that to wake the people up

'Jaw jaw is better than war war' - Sir Winston

Re: Les 'gilets jaunes'

Posted: 3 Jan 2019, 3:14pm
by Ben@Forest
Oldjohnw wrote:Pretty disgraceful stuff. As if true blue blooded Brits had much to be proud of in their colonial past. Invading counties, imposing laws and religion, severely and cruelly punishing anyone objecting. As recently as my grandfather's time. Quite apart from modern day Iraq, Libya and goodness knows where else.


Though not wanting to be an apologist for Empire some of the above is only partially true - for instance the Empire and its antecedents (such as the East India Company) had little interest in proselytising, religion was only an issue where it conflicted with commercial advantage

And compared with nearly all its European rivals or contemporaries the UK was relatively benign, especially compared with Spain, Portugal, Belgium or Germany. It's almost never mentioned that the Portuguese started the Atlantic slave trade.

Re: Les 'gilets jaunes'

Posted: 3 Jan 2019, 3:29pm
by Oldjohnw
And Hitler wasn't as bad as Stalin.

Re: Les 'gilets jaunes'

Posted: 3 Jan 2019, 3:30pm
by Ben@Forest
Oldjohnw wrote:And Hitler wasn't as bad as Stalin.


I thought that by invoking Hitler you'd lost the argument? :o

Re: Les 'gilets jaunes'

Posted: 3 Jan 2019, 3:38pm
by brynpoeth
Ben@Forest wrote:..
compared with nearly all its European rivals or contemporaries the UK was relatively benign
..

Really? The British Empire was so big and all to do with trade, money, power, spices, resources, ivory etc etc
All colonial powers were after $$$, what about Australia for example?
'Australians let us all rejoice
For we are young and free
..
We took the black man's land
And threw him in the sea'
(brynpoeth)

Maybe the Indians are grateful now, they have railways, English language, call centres, but colonial history is a miserable shaming business altogether I think

Re: Les 'gilets jaunes'

Posted: 3 Jan 2019, 3:45pm
by Oldjohnw
I wasn't meaning to be facetious about Hitler and Stalin and of course I recognise that other states had various levels of colonialism. I guess I was responding to the comments about the Wermacht marching through Poland and reminding the poster that in these things no country has much to be proud of.