100%JR wrote:slowster wrote:Put another way, I simply would not buy a frame from a custom framebuilder who had made less than 100 frames, especially if they were frames of widely differing types. My preference would be for a framebuilder who has built many hundreds of frames, ideally 1,000+, and who has built up a good reputation among discerning cyclists over many years.
I see where you are with this but they have to start somewhere.
The framebuilder who's built 1000+ bikes who you'd choose would have to have started with No1.If no one bought that or no2/3/4 then they would never get to 1000+?
Everything needs a start.
Agreed that a new framebuilder has to start somewhere. Historically that would often be as an apprentice of a well established framebuilder, where you could be fairly confident that the apprentice was supervised by the far more experienced person or persons training him, such that it should make little or no difference if a frame from that framebuilder was actually built by the apprentice.
If someone chooses to start making frames on their own without having gained such experience (and I appreciate that nowadays there may no longer be any opportunities to get such an apprenticeship), I would not buy a frame from them until they had established themselves and had built up a good reputation. If you or others would, and in so doing help to provide them with more experience, that's your choice and your money.
Moreover, whereas some framebuilders start in a very low key way, e.g. making the odd frame for themselves, friends and clubmates, and charging a price which reflects their inexperience and lack of reputation, there seem to be a number of new framebuilders who by dint of marketing and putting a great deal of time and effort into the more decorative and less functional aspects of framebuilding, are able to charge very high prices.
I've read that Dave Yates' response to being asked to do something which is in his opinion overly decorative, is to ask the customer whether they are going to ride the bike or hang it on the wall. I appreciate that some customers might want to do both, in which case there are other very experienced framebuilders who might suit them better, e.g. Kevin Sayles at Woodrup makes some extremely ornate and beautiful frames. What would concern me about getting a frame from one of those new framebuilders is that the frame might look great hung on a wall, but not be so great to ride. I would not want to take that risk.