Gatwick Drones

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Canuk
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Re: Gatwick Drones

Postby Canuk » 21 Dec 2018, 8:21am

Oldjohnw wrote:Given that people who do this sort thing are quite happy to act illegally in pursuit of their objectives how does widening a ban area help? Murder has been illegal for quite a long time: it still happens.

I claim to be green and am continually reviewing what I do and buy. I fully support attempts to reduce air travel significantly. But to aim to disrupt the plans of tens of thousands and even possibly endanger life is both disreputable and wrong. It will not help the very cause they espouse.

Always assuming that it was 'Eco-terrorists' as the current speculation appears to suggest.


It probably means you would have to deploy regular and expensive patrols of this 5km exclusion zone, perhaps even carried out by the military and anyone found in possession of a drone could be immediately detained and the threat mitigated. If the penalties were sufficient it would certainly act as a deterrent.

merseymouth
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Re: Gatwick Drones

Postby merseymouth » 21 Dec 2018, 8:48am

Hi all, I think it is a case of trying to get the "Drone Genie" back in the bottle!
Mayhem available at a very low price. Oh for the days when to get amateur aerial photos one used a kite.
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Tangled Metal
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Re: Gatwick Drones

Postby Tangled Metal » 21 Dec 2018, 8:51am

Stealth? Light, agile helicopters with...

Do they have those helicopters on every civilian airfield to spot these stealth modified drones or was it simply spotted by the very high tech human eye aided perhaps by an optical device, say binoculars?

Can I get a tin hat too? I think my brain has started to leak my thoughts to the cabal of business men who run the planet and their army of alien half breeds.

Sorry! I went too far. Think I'll move on to another thread.

matt_twam_asi
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Re: Gatwick Drones

Postby matt_twam_asi » 21 Dec 2018, 8:55am

landsurfer wrote:
RickH wrote:My understanding is that it is illegal to fly one of these outside direct line of sight by the person controlling it & I think the legal distance limit is 500m from the controller (assuming flying in the UK & assuming he isn't a licenced commercial drone pilot, which will change the rules somewhat).



Incorrect, read the CAA and government legal position. VR is line of sight.


Are you sure about that?
https://www.caa.co.uk/Consumers/Unmanne ... e-flights/
First Person View
Drones that are fitted with video cameras often provide an opportunity to downlink ‘live’ video to the person flying the drone either via a mobile phone, tablet computer or other screen, or even through video goggles - this capability provides the operator with a pseudo ‘pilots eye view’ from the drone itself and is generally given the term ‘First Person view’ (FPV).

However, the law [at ANO article 94(3)] requires that the person in charge of a drone must maintain direct unaided visual contact with the aircraft which is sufficient to monitor its flight path so that collisions may be avoided. This is obviously not possible if that person is wearing video goggles or otherwise constantly monitoring a display. Therefore, FPV flight is only permitted if the activity has been approved by the CAA. A General Exemption has been issued which allows an element of ‘First Person View’ (FPV) flight to be conducted.


But if you can provide contradictory information from the CAA then I'd be genuinely interested to see it.

Canuk
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Re: Gatwick Drones

Postby Canuk » 21 Dec 2018, 9:01am

Tangled Metal wrote:Stealth? Light, agile helicopters with...

Do they have those helicopters on every civilian airfield to spot these stealth modified drones or was it simply spotted by the very high tech human eye aided perhaps by an optical device, say binoculars?

Can I get a tin hat too? I think my brain has started to leak my thoughts to the cabal of business men who run the planet and their army of alien half breeds.

Sorry! I went too far. Think I'll move on to another thread.


I come from a military aviation background. Its clear that the civilian authorities had no clue how to deter these drones, so they brought in military expertise yesterday. My take is that the threat has been identified and destroyed as of this morning (flights have resumed) by indeed a light, agile helicopter fitted with detection tech attuned to small targets. No tin foil there my friend. But ironically as you say, tin foil is a very good protection for stealth mode flight of something lightweight like a drone. Where were you at six am yesterday morning :wink:

This is straight forward, if unusual military intervention, intelligence guided solution to a problem which is only going to increase, IMHO.

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Cugel
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Re: Gatwick Drones

Postby Cugel » 21 Dec 2018, 9:06am

This incident is a practical lesson to all would-be drone users harbouring a variety of ill intents. It wouldn't be a surprise to discover that this incident is a scouting expedition by one nation-state or another; or by one of the trans-national ideological groups that have sprung up like Topsy. Virtual war via remote cybernetic interferences; physical war via unidentifiable and remotely-instigated drone sorties. Automated techno-guerrilla war.

There is currently also feverish development by many arms manufacturers concerning the use of drones as "soldiers". Flocks of small but lethal machines able to swarm a target; or to infiltrate and execute in a stealthy fashion, perhaps under (remote) human control but also autonomously. How long before the amateurs rig up something similar?

The use of drones in various wars of the Western World upon their traditional punchbags, such as Afghanistan and Iraq, has also provided a lesson to the "enemy" about what can be achieved with no risk to a pilot and a very much smaller cost than using a full-blown aircraft to deliver death and destruction.

Drones are a literal - made-real - set of Pandora-box "troubles" and seem destined to do far worse things than delay a few hundred thousand travellers. I'm feeling a relief that I'm old, accompanied by the hope that these things will not develop their full awful potential and use until after I've clog-popped.

Dystopia Mark X is on the way!

Cugel

Canuk
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Re: Gatwick Drones

Postby Canuk » 21 Dec 2018, 9:22am

You're right on the money Cugel. Micro drone technology is not a 'future' tech, its active and in use right now. I've witnessed a live working swarm demonstration and it's literally blood chilling. And it's being developed and delivered in Europe also. Its only a matter of time before this extremely pervasive and potentially lethal tech hits the consumer market. That would make this current Gatwick fiasco look childs play. Check out this micro drone promotional video (which is actually about 2 years out of date) to see what's coming, and indeed what's already with us.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=z78mgfKprdg

pwa
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Re: Gatwick Drones

Postby pwa » 21 Dec 2018, 9:25am

I don't fly and don't believe others should be doing it for trivial reasons, but I also hate the idea of some geek gleefully spoiling other people's holidays.

It is time to limit possession of drones above a certain size to professionals with a licence and a good reason for having one. And a hobby would not be a good reason.

Canuk
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Re: Gatwick Drones

Postby Canuk » 21 Dec 2018, 9:37am

pwa wrote:I don't fly and don't believe others should be doing it for trivial reasons, but I also hate the idea of some geek gleefully spoiling other people's holidays.

It is time to limit possession of drones above a certain size to professionals with a licence and a good reason for having one. And a hobby would not be a good reason.


Thats exactly the case in the US, any drone purchased over 250gr has to be accompanied by a $5 registration certificate, and a specialist training course if the drone is to be used for professional purposes. If caught without either of these its a criminal offence punishable by either a fine or jail time. I can't believe they didn't adopt this in the UK. As usual it'll be a case of too little too late.

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661-Pete
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Re: Gatwick Drones

Postby 661-Pete » 21 Dec 2018, 9:44am

Here's a good 'conspiracy-theory' line. Our ill-fated, misbegotten, beleaguered Government sure needs a "distraction" of some sort in these turbulent times! A means to "bury bad news". What if....?
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mjr
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Re: Gatwick Drones

Postby mjr » 21 Dec 2018, 9:47am

Canuk wrote:
pwa wrote:I don't fly and don't believe others should be doing it for trivial reasons, but I also hate the idea of some geek gleefully spoiling other people's holidays.

It is time to limit possession of drones above a certain size to professionals with a licence and a good reason for having one. And a hobby would not be a good reason.


Thats exactly the case in the US, any drone purchased over 250gr has to be accompanied by a $5 registration certificate, and a specialist training course if the drone is to be used for professional purposes. If caught without either of these its a criminal offence punishable by either a fine or jail time. I can't believe they didn't adopt this in the UK. As usual it'll be a case of too little too late.

I can't believe anyone seriously thinks that this drone pilot would obey such laws. It's not a viable solution.

News reports are saying it's "possible" it's an environmental protestor. I guess anything is possible until they're caught, but that seems an awfully convenient scapegoat for an airport.
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
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Canuk
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Re: Gatwick Drones

Postby Canuk » 21 Dec 2018, 10:13am

mjr wrote:
Canuk wrote:
pwa wrote:I don't fly and don't believe others should be doing it for trivial reasons, but I also hate the idea of some geek gleefully spoiling other people's holidays.

It is time to limit possession of drones above a certain size to professionals with a licence and a good reason for having one. And a hobby would not be a good reason.


Thats exactly the case in the US, any drone purchased over 250gr has to be accompanied by a $5 registration certificate, and a specialist training course if the drone is to be used for professional purposes. If caught without either of these its a criminal offence punishable by either a fine or jail time. I can't believe they didn't adopt this in the UK. As usual it'll be a case of too little too late.

I can't believe anyone seriously thinks that this drone pilot would obey such laws. It's not a viable solution.

News reports are saying it's "possible" it's an environmental protestor. I guess anything is possible until they're caught, but that seems an awfully convenient scapegoat for an airport.


Just as the life imprisonment is not a complete deterrent to potential murderers, a hefty 10 year tariff would certainly deter most copy cat behaviour which unfortunately is the likely outcome of this Gatwick fiasco. Major delays coming to an airport near you.

thirdcrank
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Re: Gatwick Drones

Postby thirdcrank » 21 Dec 2018, 10:20am

AIUI, the UK authorities have not been able to stop this so far. While it may be diverting media attention from brexit, it's so serious that I think they would have stopped it sooner if they could. They seem unaware of the depth of knowledge on this forum, if only they asked.

pwa
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Re: Gatwick Drones

Postby pwa » 21 Dec 2018, 10:39am

mjr wrote:
Canuk wrote:
pwa wrote:I don't fly and don't believe others should be doing it for trivial reasons, but I also hate the idea of some geek gleefully spoiling other people's holidays.

It is time to limit possession of drones above a certain size to professionals with a licence and a good reason for having one. And a hobby would not be a good reason.


Thats exactly the case in the US, any drone purchased over 250gr has to be accompanied by a $5 registration certificate, and a specialist training course if the drone is to be used for professional purposes. If caught without either of these its a criminal offence punishable by either a fine or jail time. I can't believe they didn't adopt this in the UK. As usual it'll be a case of too little too late.

I can't believe anyone seriously thinks that this drone pilot would obey such laws. It's not a viable solution.

News reports are saying it's "possible" it's an environmental protestor. I guess anything is possible until they're caught, but that seems an awfully convenient scapegoat for an airport.

It would be useful because if someone supplied a tip-off that Mr. X at number 5 Acacia Avenue had a drone and might be responsible for an incident, just having the drone on his premises without authorisation would be enough to prosecute.

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mjr
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Re: Gatwick Drones

Postby mjr » 21 Dec 2018, 10:59am

Canuk wrote:
mjr wrote:I can't believe anyone seriously thinks that this drone pilot would obey such laws. It's not a viable solution.


Just as the life imprisonment is not a complete deterrent to potential murderers, a hefty 10 year tariff would certainly deter most copy cat behaviour which unfortunately is the likely outcome of this Gatwick fiasco. Major delays coming to an airport near you.

Sorry but that seems to be a pernicious myth, encouraged by politicians who like to portray themselves as "tough on crime". It's actually far worse than "imprisonment is not a complete deterrent": even the USA's death penalty is actually not a deterrent. It's covered in the first Freakonomics book and one of its authors summarised the evidence as "no rational criminal should be deterred by the death penalty, since the punishment is too distant and too unlikely to merit much attention."

thirdcrank wrote:AIUI, the UK authorities have not been able to stop this so far. While it may be diverting media attention from brexit, it's so serious that I think they would have stopped it sooner if they could. They seem unaware of the depth of knowledge on this forum, if only they asked.

To be fair, some of the drone pilot groups are making pretty much the same points in the media, although the desire to fill news "specials" means that some lunatics have appeared too. Lowlights include those suggesting that it's linked to internet security (nope - I'd bet these drones aren't online) or that installing geofences (firmware limits so drones refuse to fly near airports) would prevent the attacks (nope - the owners would simply reflash them with different/no fences).

pwa wrote:
mjr wrote:I can't believe anyone seriously thinks that this drone pilot would obey such laws. It's not a viable solution.

It would be useful because if someone supplied a tip-off that Mr. X at number 5 Acacia Avenue had a drone and might be responsible for an incident, just having the drone on his premises without authorisation would be enough to prosecute.

I agree that's what would happen, but I don't see how that would be useful. Surely most such prosecutions would be busybodies who just don't like their neighbours flying these things, while the disruptive uses would continue largely unchecked because the offensive pilots wouldn't be so foolish as to use their drones visibly.
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
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