I am not a vegan

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pwa
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Re: I am not a vegan

Postby pwa » 5 Jan 2019, 10:09am

661-Pete wrote:Enough on doggies: back to veganism: here at least is one individual who's most unhappy about the whole principle.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-s ... e-46761359
I have to say, the poster on the bus depicting a 'happy' calf (and the one lower down featuring a smiling pig) doesn't quite convey the right message to me. If veganism ever did become mainstream, most of these cute farm animals would disappear. And the landscape upon which they are reared would be irrevocably altered.

But having said that, I'm all in favour of promoting this idea to as many people as possible. Only a small proportion of readers will actually 'bite' - but a few is better than none. And we really are producing and consuming far too much meat. That much is indisputable.

I'm not vegan, but I do find it very funny when meat eaters / producers get wound up about the idea of veganism.

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661-Pete
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Re: I am not a vegan

Postby 661-Pete » 5 Jan 2019, 11:25am

pwa wrote:I'm not vegan, but I do find it very funny when meat eaters / producers get wound up about the idea of veganism.
Funny - but also a bit sad - I grant you. Yes there might be people who'd lose their livelihood, or part of it. Just as, in the last half-century, the majority of coalminers in this country have lost their livelihood - because we've decided that coal is not the optimum energy-producer. And the majority of newspaper typesetters have lost their livelihoods - pace Wapping activists - because it has to be admitted there are better ways of converting journalists' scribbles to newsprint.

And I reckon there are fewer horse-and-cart drivers these days, than there were in Dickens's time.

Sometimes society does have to move on.

However, the cataclysmic changes which would attend an all-vegan conversion of the whole of society - that's going too far I think. Even the most strident vegan activists would have to admit that.
Suppose that this room is a lift. The support breaks and down we go with ever-increasing velocity.
Let us pass the time by performing physical experiments...
--- Arthur Eddington (creator of the Eddington Number).

pwa
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Re: I am not a vegan

Postby pwa » 5 Jan 2019, 12:11pm

661-Pete wrote:
pwa wrote:I'm not vegan, but I do find it very funny when meat eaters / producers get wound up about the idea of veganism.
Funny - but also a bit sad - I grant you. Yes there might be people who'd lose their livelihood, or part of it. Just as, in the last half-century, the majority of coalminers in this country have lost their livelihood - because we've decided that coal is not the optimum energy-producer. And the majority of newspaper typesetters have lost their livelihoods - pace Wapping activists - because it has to be admitted there are better ways of converting journalists' scribbles to newsprint.

And I reckon there are fewer horse-and-cart drivers these days, than there were in Dickens's time.

Sometimes society does have to move on.

However, the cataclysmic changes which would attend an all-vegan conversion of the whole of society - that's going too far I think. Even the most strident vegan activists would have to admit that.

In the real world, even if society did move to being purely vegan (very unlikely) it would happen slowly, giving generations time to adapt in different ways.

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661-Pete
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Re: I am not a vegan

Postby 661-Pete » 5 Jan 2019, 3:43pm

More on that Shropshire councillor - turns out he used to be a dairy farmer. It figures....

I wonder if his farm was anything like this one [warning: distressing footage]?
Suppose that this room is a lift. The support breaks and down we go with ever-increasing velocity.
Let us pass the time by performing physical experiments...
--- Arthur Eddington (creator of the Eddington Number).

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Re: I am not a vegan

Postby Vorpal » 5 Jan 2019, 5:04pm

661-Pete wrote:I can't vouch for the accuracy of this report, but see here:
https://www.independent.co.uk/life-styl ... 78086.html
I'm not telling dog and cat-owners to get rid of their pets. I'm telling people who are thinking of acquiring a pet, perhaps to entertain the children - or of replacing one that's recently deceased - have a good long think about it.

It doesn't account for the fact that most of meat and animal byproducts that go into pet food are waste from the human food production industry.

Secondly, very little of it is actually meat. Pet food is made of a of waste from grain processing, canning, meat processing, etc.

This report is better titled, 'what the environmental impact would be if you actually fed your pets meat. :lol:

p.s., I suspect that this is a rehashing of a similar report done 6 or 7 years ago.
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Cugel
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Re: I am not a vegan

Postby Cugel » 5 Jan 2019, 6:36pm

661-Pete wrote:
pwa wrote:I'm not vegan, but I do find it very funny when meat eaters / producers get wound up about the idea of veganism.
Funny - but also a bit sad - I grant you. Yes there might be people who'd lose their livelihood, or part of it. Just as, in the last half-century, the majority of coalminers in this country have lost their livelihood - because we've decided that coal is not the optimum energy-producer. And the majority of newspaper typesetters have lost their livelihoods - pace Wapping activists - because it has to be admitted there are better ways of converting journalists' scribbles to newsprint.

And I reckon there are fewer horse-and-cart drivers these days, than there were in Dickens's time.

Sometimes society does have to move on.

However, the cataclysmic changes which would attend an all-vegan conversion of the whole of society - that's going too far I think. Even the most strident vegan activists would have to admit that.


Well, I tend to the conservative (little "c" not the Party ilk) in that I worry about the unintended consequences of large scale sudden changes in hugely complex, highly networked systems. Still, one could imagine a change from meat eating to veganism producing many more jobs across agriculture....

And what other current practices of the highly damaging and nasty kind must we continue with to keep people in work? Personally I want the gambling purveyors, car-makers and strip miners to find other work right now! Some revolutionary changes are worth the risk of a few unintended consequences. Perhaps the unintended consequences themselves might be, in part, beneficial? No cars and everyone must walk or cycle ..... less obesity and other drains on health services, then; and many other similar benefits. :-)

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Ben@Forest
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Re: I am not a vegan

Postby Ben@Forest » 5 Jan 2019, 9:18pm

Cugel wrote:Well, I tend to the conservative (little "c" not the Party ilk) in that I worry about the unintended consequences of large scale sudden changes in hugely complex, highly networked systems. Still, one could imagine a change from meat eating to veganism producing many more jobs across agriculture....


Not sure about many more jobs. Livestock farming requires more labour input than arable crops. I know someone who runs a 300 ha arable farm with two people (including him). He has contractors come in for particular jobs or harvests but animal care requires more constant care.

Of course jobs like fruit picking or veg harvesting can require more people but they are highly seasonal. If we were all vegan l guess there would be more different ventures growing different crops - but l suspect a lot of that would be under glass or on industrial estates and not really being 'farming'.

landsurfer
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Re: I am not a vegan

Postby landsurfer » 5 Jan 2019, 9:33pm

Page 8 of the post ... a long way in.... and a totally troll free comment.

Do Vegans have to take any supplements for essential body requirements not available from their diet ?
Does the rejection of any animal based clothing (shoes, etc etc) lead to their replacement with plastics ?
I am aware that there are many non animal based fibres available, but are these actually commercially practical and mass available ?

By choice i would be a vegetarian , but live in a family group of carnivores .... :(
Vegan .... difficult place for me to be .... but respect.
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The Road Goes On Forever ........................

pwa
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Re: I am not a vegan

Postby pwa » 5 Jan 2019, 9:58pm

With all the stuff you have access to in a supermarket a vegan could get all they nutrients they need from food and drink, without supplements. B12, for instance, is in a lot of breakfast cereals.

Ben@Forest
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Re: I am not a vegan

Postby Ben@Forest » 5 Jan 2019, 10:08pm

landsurfer wrote:I am aware that there are many non animal based fibres available, but are these actually commercially practical and mass available ?


There have been studies over the past few years that have shown faux furs (made from acrylics and polyester) are less environmentally friendly than real fur. This is especially the case if the real fur is from a vegetarian species like rabbit, plus of course the synthetic materials are thrown away sooner than real fur and take hundreds of years to decompose.

landsurfer
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Re: I am not a vegan

Postby landsurfer » 6 Jan 2019, 8:00am

pwa wrote:With all the stuff you have access to in a supermarket a vegan could get all they nutrients they need from food and drink, without supplements. B12, for instance, is in a lot of breakfast cereals.


Totally right, but of the 3 breakfast different cereals we have in the house at the moment i would have to eat a box full every day just to get 28% of my daily requirement of B12 from breakfast cereals ..... :)
It's not about the bike .. It's about the journey .....
The Road Goes On Forever ........................

pwa
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Re: I am not a vegan

Postby pwa » 6 Jan 2019, 8:27am

landsurfer wrote:
pwa wrote:With all the stuff you have access to in a supermarket a vegan could get all they nutrients they need from food and drink, without supplements. B12, for instance, is in a lot of breakfast cereals.


Totally right, but of the 3 breakfast different cereals we have in the house at the moment i would have to eat a box full every day just to get 28% of my daily requirement of B12 from breakfast cereals ..... :)

Yes, but if you are going down the vegan route you will hopefully be doing some reading and building stuff like yeast extract into recipes. I was vegan for a year in the late 1980s and it was the first time in my life that I looked at the nutrients I was taking in and took control over it. I based my diet on a government publication intended for healthcare professionals, an academic book with lots of tables, and I made sure every nutrient was accounted for. It can be done. If you do it properly you will be better fed than the average person on the street. Not that that is saying much. Most people are on a bad diet in one way or another.

Someone like you would have no problem devising a sound vegan diet. You would ask the right questions and find the answers.

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661-Pete
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Re: I am not a vegan

Postby 661-Pete » 6 Jan 2019, 9:42am

landsurfer wrote:Do Vegans have to take any supplements for essential body requirements not available from their diet ?
There's controversy here - some say you have to take a B12 supplement (presumably in the form of pills) - some say not. And of course vitamin pills .... a whole new minefield.

I like the 'part-time vegan' principle which we have adopted. Which means no worries about B12. For example, last night's dinner (tofu and stir-fry veg in sweet-sour sauce) was entirely vegan. We were planning to have a very non-vegan fish supper (as we often do on Saturdays) but Waitrose didn't have much fish in, and nothing we fancied. So tofu it was. And it'll probably be fish next Tuesday or Wednesday.

Vegan .... difficult place for me to be .... but respect.
Thanks. Like Voltaire, I may disagree with a lot of what you post - but on this occasion I welcome your comment.
Suppose that this room is a lift. The support breaks and down we go with ever-increasing velocity.
Let us pass the time by performing physical experiments...
--- Arthur Eddington (creator of the Eddington Number).

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Re: I am not a vegan

Postby Vorpal » 6 Jan 2019, 10:44am

landsurfer wrote:Page 8 of the post ... a long way in.... and a totally troll free comment.

Do Vegans have to take any supplements for essential body requirements not available from their diet ?
Does the rejection of any animal based clothing (shoes, etc etc) lead to their replacement with plastics ?
I am aware that there are many non animal based fibres available, but are these actually commercially practical and mass available ?

By choice i would be a vegetarian , but live in a family group of carnivores .... :(
Vegan .... difficult place for me to be .... but respect.

Like Pete-661, when I became vegetarian in 1987, it was the first time I ever really looked at what I was eating, and whether I was intaking all essential nutrients, I did not become vegan, though my cousin did, and we talked alot about our choices, food, and nutrition.

I have sometimes taken vitamin B12 supplements, but I haven't done so in years. I eat enough dairy (yogurt and cheese) to get vitamin B12. Vegans mostly get it through fortified yeast. A minority of vegans do not eat yeast on the basis that they are living organisms.

There are B12 supplements made for vegans, and vegan foods fortified with B12. Vegans also needs to be careful that they get enough calcium, iron, zinc, riboflavin, and omega 3. These area avialable in plant based foods, but it does require at least some thought to include them.

By the way, vitamin and mineral deficiency is a human problem, not just a vegan one. B12 deficiency can be difficult to diagnose as blood levels do not necessarily indicate absorption rates. Study results vary hugely. I've seen some studies that show only a small percentage (1 - 3 %)of the population have vitamin B12 deficiency, and other studies that found as much as 20% of the population may be dificient.

I might suspect that vegetarians and vegans who are pehaps somewhat more likely to pay attention to their nutrition, may actually be less likely to suffer from deficiency. Although one of the things medical professional are advised to look for in diagnosing B12 deficiency is recent change to vegan diet.

p.s. Mr. V is a carnivore and Mini V is lactose intolerant, so meal times can be a challenge, but we have learned to cope. One of the things we have at least once per week is wraps (soft tortillas) with a variety of fillings available, and everyone makes their own.
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom

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661-Pete
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Re: I am not a vegan

Postby 661-Pete » 6 Jan 2019, 11:46am

Some adopt the "something of the tree, something of the pea, something of the grass" mantra (or words to that effect). In essence, you won't get the full set of essential amino-acids and vitamins from a purely plant-based diet unless you consume a wide variety of plants. At least some nuts ("of the tree"), some pulses ("of the pea") and some grains/bread/rice etc. ("of the grass").

But others disagree....
Suppose that this room is a lift. The support breaks and down we go with ever-increasing velocity.
Let us pass the time by performing physical experiments...
--- Arthur Eddington (creator of the Eddington Number).