I am not a vegan

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Tangled Metal
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Re: I am not a vegan

Postby Tangled Metal » 17 Jan 2019, 10:52pm

661-Pete wrote:
Tangled Metal wrote:One small piece of red meat can give your body the iron intake from something like 10 large portions of spinach. The iron in meat is easily absorbed but iron from spinach I believe doesn't always get into your system efficiently hence the need for more to be eaten.
Spinach isn't the best vegan source of dietary iron: cooked pulses especially dried beans are far better. Nor will spinach (tinned or otherwise!) endow you with the superhuman strength needed to dispel Bluto - sorry aspiring Popeyes!

True but the programme that I referenced with the spinach option let people pick the food that would give them enough iron. They could pick a much of whatever they chose so could pick enough spinach of they felt it was needed.

The point being the people that the show recruited from general public were asked to pick food to give them the iron they needed and mostly got it wrong. They could pick the type of food and the quantity needed. They sometimes picked the right foods but wrong quantity such as the spinach. Sometimes they picked meat that was a good source and enough quantity. Others picked the wrong foods.

The indications with new vegans making that switch than ever before without the foresight to learn what a healthy vegan diet is will result in health issues down the line. That it's already indicating itself according to some expert's research is a concern.

It does feel that the UK relationship with food isn't as healthy as other countries to me. It's not just food but UK relationship with alcohol is also a problem more than many other European nations.

NickWi
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Re: I am not a vegan

Postby NickWi » 17 Jan 2019, 11:34pm

To take a quote from fossala from the first page in this thread and use it in a different context:-
fossala wrote:Put yourselves in the mindset of a vegan. Most, if not all vegans think that killing animals is wrong and a lot would argue that it's tantamount to murder....


Fine, if that's the opinion I respct that, but now put yourself in the mindser of a Fruitarian. Most, if not all Fruitarians think that killing plants is wrong and a lot would argue that it's tantamount to murder....

I'm not having a go at fossala or anyone in particular, just interested to know how Vegans and Vegetarians feel when the arguement they use is turned around and used by them and they are accused of killing poor innocent plants.

Tangled Metal
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Re: I am not a vegan

Postby Tangled Metal » 18 Jan 2019, 12:01am

There was a documentary on woods last year based on research on an old area of ancient woodland in the UK. IIRC diseases that reach the wood and pass through it got defeated before it reached the other side. What was happening was communication through from one end of the wood to the other. The trees that were dying at the beginning of the outbreak of the disease was passing information to the other trees. This gave the later trees a headstart in their fight against the disease. Eventually enough solutions had been collectively tried to find the one that worked by protecting against the disease.

Researchers found out that the trees were connected through the funghi growing through the roots of the trees. This funghi helped spread information through the wood.

I don't know if plants feel pain but it seems they do connect to each other and communicate. Which begs the question whether science will show they feel pain top? Will one day humans will be claiming that eating vegetables is murder? Once people weren't as bothered about killing animals as they are now. Opinions change.

BTW I'm not completely serious about this.

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fossala
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Re: I am not a vegan

Postby fossala » 18 Jan 2019, 5:44am

NickWi wrote:To take a quote from fossala from the first page in this thread and use it in a different context:-
fossala wrote:Put yourselves in the mindset of a vegan. Most, if not all vegans think that killing animals is wrong and a lot would argue that it's tantamount to murder....


Fine, if that's the opinion I respct that, but now put yourself in the mindser of a Fruitarian. Most, if not all Fruitarians think that killing plants is wrong and a lot would argue that it's tantamount to murder....

I'm not having a go at fossala or anyone in particular, just interested to know how Vegans and Vegetarians feel when the arguement they use is turned around and used by them and they are accused of killing poor innocent plants.

Plants don't feel pain. They're not sentient beings.

Tangled Metal
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Re: I am not a vegan

Postby Tangled Metal » 18 Jan 2019, 8:28am

No nervous system to feel pain.

Once laws on sentience were anthropometric. Now they are beginning to include all the animal kingdom. We're always on that journey to enlightenment. Where it ends up nobody knows.

Vorpal
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Re: I am not a vegan

Postby Vorpal » 18 Jan 2019, 8:32am

Tangled Metal wrote:I don't know if plants feel pain but it seems they do connect to each other and communicate. Which begs the question whether science will show they feel pain top? Will one day humans will be claiming that eating vegetables is murder? Once people weren't as bothered about killing animals as they are now. Opinions change.

Soylent Green, anyone? :wink:
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom

Tangled Metal
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Re: I am not a vegan

Postby Tangled Metal » 18 Jan 2019, 8:40am

Vorpal wrote:
Tangled Metal wrote:I don't know if plants feel pain but it seems they do connect to each other and communicate. Which begs the question whether science will show they feel pain top? Will one day humans will be claiming that eating vegetables is murder? Once people weren't as bothered about killing animals as they are now. Opinions change.

Soylent Green, anyone? :wink:

Good job that wasn't posted in another thread discussing age related driving! It would have been very bad taste. :|

Vorpal
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Re: I am not a vegan

Postby Vorpal » 18 Jan 2019, 8:45am

Tangled Metal wrote:
Vorpal wrote:
Tangled Metal wrote:I don't know if plants feel pain but it seems they do connect to each other and communicate. Which begs the question whether science will show they feel pain top? Will one day humans will be claiming that eating vegetables is murder? Once people weren't as bothered about killing animals as they are now. Opinions change.

Soylent Green, anyone? :wink:

Good job that wasn't posted in another thread discussing age related driving! It would have been very bad taste. :|

Pun intended? :mrgreen:
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom

pwa
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Re: I am not a vegan

Postby pwa » 18 Jan 2019, 9:04am

fossala wrote:
NickWi wrote:To take a quote from fossala from the first page in this thread and use it in a different context:-
fossala wrote:Put yourselves in the mindset of a vegan. Most, if not all vegans think that killing animals is wrong and a lot would argue that it's tantamount to murder....


Fine, if that's the opinion I respct that, but now put yourself in the mindser of a Fruitarian. Most, if not all Fruitarians think that killing plants is wrong and a lot would argue that it's tantamount to murder....

I'm not having a go at fossala or anyone in particular, just interested to know how Vegans and Vegetarians feel when the arguement they use is turned around and used by them and they are accused of killing poor innocent plants.

Plants don't feel pain. They're not sentient beings.

That is my understanding. That they have no thought.

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661-Pete
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Re: I am not a vegan

Postby 661-Pete » 18 Jan 2019, 9:16am

Tangled Metal wrote:There was a documentary on woods last year based on research on an old area of ancient woodland in the UK. IIRC diseases that reach the wood and pass through it got defeated before it reached the other side. What was happening was communication through from one end of the wood to the other. The trees that were dying at the beginning of the outbreak of the disease was passing information to the other trees. This gave the later trees a headstart in their fight against the disease. Eventually enough solutions had been collectively tried to find the one that worked by protecting against the disease.
You been reading Lord of the Rings again? :lol:

I seriously doubt if plants can send pheromones - or whatever the right word is - to other plants in their neighbourhood - but then I'm no plant expert, and maybe there are still facts about plant life waiting to be discovered. What I can say is what we observed last year. We often go up Ditchling Beacon (by the footpath, not by bike! :oops: ) and the path goes past an environmentally-significant ash grove, about 2Ha in area, an important feature of the local nature reserve. Until last year the wood appeared to be perfectly healthy and thriving. Last summer we went up that path, and alas! every single tree in the wood appeared to be dead :( - no doubt from the 'ash dieback' disease. If there's 'communication' between those trees, clearly it wasn't working for them....

I should add that we walked that path again much more recently, and there do seem to be some signs of recovery, mainly among saplings. Probably too late to make an impact in my lifetime.

BTW I'm not completely serious about this.
I thought as much..... :wink:
Suppose that this room is a lift. The support breaks and down we go with ever-increasing velocity.
Let us pass the time by performing physical experiments...
--- Arthur Eddington (creator of the Eddington Number).

AlaninWales
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Re: I am not a vegan

Postby AlaninWales » 18 Jan 2019, 12:50pm

661-Pete wrote:
Tangled Metal wrote:There was a documentary on woods last year based on research on an old area of ancient woodland in the UK. IIRC diseases that reach the wood and pass through it got defeated before it reached the other side. What was happening was communication through from one end of the wood to the other. The trees that were dying at the beginning of the outbreak of the disease was passing information to the other trees. This gave the later trees a headstart in their fight against the disease. Eventually enough solutions had been collectively tried to find the one that worked by protecting against the disease.
You been reading Lord of the Rings again? :lol:

I seriously doubt if plants can send pheromones - or whatever the right word is - to other plants in their neighbourhood - but then I'm no plant expert, and maybe there are still facts about plant life waiting to be discovered. What I can say is what we observed last year. We often go up Ditchling Beacon (by the footpath, not by bike! :oops: ) and the path goes past an environmentally-significant ash grove, about 2Ha in area, an important feature of the local nature reserve. Until last year the wood appeared to be perfectly healthy and thriving. Last summer we went up that path, and alas! every single tree in the wood appeared to be dead :( - no doubt from the 'ash dieback' disease. If there's 'communication' between those trees, clearly it wasn't working for them....

I should add that we walked that path again much more recently, and there do seem to be some signs of recovery, mainly among saplings. Probably too late to make an impact in my lifetime.

BTW I'm not completely serious about this.
I thought as much..... :wink:

lol! Of course they do:
https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg ... -messages/
And they use them (as has long been known) to warn of physical danger:
https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg ... rm-system/

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661-Pete
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Re: I am not a vegan

Postby 661-Pete » 18 Jan 2019, 2:22pm

AlaninWales wrote:lol! Of course they do:
https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg ... -messages/
And they use them (as has long been known) to warn of physical danger:
https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg ... rm-system/

All right. Plants communicate with insects and other pollinators by emitting pheromones. We all know that. Many flowers also grow colourful petals to visually attract them. And some produce tasty fruit, to encourage animals (and us) to eat them, and distribute the seeds...

And plants grow thorns, and secrete poisons, to deter browsers. We all know that too!

But plants communicating with one another? Yes I have read Day of the Triffids (and the fan sequel Night of the Triffids). Perhaps we'll leave the concept where it rests, in those two books...?

One hobby of mine is not concerned so much with plants as with fungi - in a purely practical sense (I like collecting them for eating). One might wonder why it is that a particular mushroom - the Death Cap Amanita phalloides, which is reasonably common in our woodlands - generates so much toxin in its insides. One specimen of this toadstool, if eaten, is enough to kill several people - slowly and excruciatingly painfully. What does the fungus gain, from an evolutionary perspective, in all this? Besides, according to popular belief, rabbits can browse on this fungus with impunity. Humans can't.

I've also wondered about the belief that, in order to successfully grow the edible shiitake mushroom, you have to 'frighten' the log on which it's spawned, by beating it... or is this just an urban myth?

There are many mysteries in both the plant and fungi kingdoms...
Suppose that this room is a lift. The support breaks and down we go with ever-increasing velocity.
Let us pass the time by performing physical experiments...
--- Arthur Eddington (creator of the Eddington Number).

AlaninWales
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Re: I am not a vegan

Postby AlaninWales » 18 Jan 2019, 2:47pm

661-Pete wrote:
AlaninWales wrote:lol! Of course they do:
https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg ... -messages/
And they use them (as has long been known) to warn of physical danger:
https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg ... rm-system/

All right. Plants communicate with insects and other pollinators by emitting pheromones. We all know that. Many flowers also grow colourful petals to visually attract them. And some produce tasty fruit, to encourage animals (and us) to eat them, and distribute the seeds...

And plants grow thorns, and secrete poisons, to deter browsers. We all know that too!

But plants communicating with one another? Yes I have read Day of the Triffids (and the fan sequel Night of the Triffids). Perhaps we'll leave the concept where it rests, in those two books...?

One hobby of mine is not concerned so much with plants as with fungi - in a purely practical sense (I like collecting them for eating). One might wonder why it is that a particular mushroom - the Death Cap Amanita phalloides, which is reasonably common in our woodlands - generates so much toxin in its insides. One specimen of this toadstool, if eaten, is enough to kill several people - slowly and excruciatingly painfully. What does the fungus gain, from an evolutionary perspective, in all this? Besides, according to popular belief, rabbits can browse on this fungus with impunity. Humans can't.

I've also wondered about the belief that, in order to successfully grow the edible shiitake mushroom, you have to 'frighten' the log on which it's spawned, by beating it... or is this just an urban myth?

There are many mysteries in both the plant and fungi kingdoms...

Try reading the second link as well:
ACACIA trees pass on an ‘alarm signal’ to other trees when antelope
browse on their leaves, according to a zoologist from Pretoria University.
Wouter Van Hoven says that acacias nibbled by antelope produce leaf tannin
in quantities lethal to the browsers, and emit ethylene into the air which
can travel up to 50 yards. The ethylene warns other trees of the impending
danger, which then step up their own production of leaf tannin within just
five to ten minutes.

Perhaps we should not leave the concept to Sci-fi books, since it is demonstrated in science fact.

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661-Pete
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Re: I am not a vegan

Postby 661-Pete » 18 Jan 2019, 2:52pm

Now you've started me wondering. It's a well-known piece of wisdom that you can quickly ripen avocados - and other unripe fruit - by placing them in the same bowl as the bananas - because the bananas give off ethylene which encourages other fruit to ripen. Indeed I do exactly that, if I have unripe avocados in the house.

So what is the 'signal' being sent out there? Is the banana telling the avocado, "ripen yourself pronto, because there are animals out there simply salivating in their eagerness to gobble you up!"?
Suppose that this room is a lift. The support breaks and down we go with ever-increasing velocity.
Let us pass the time by performing physical experiments...
--- Arthur Eddington (creator of the Eddington Number).

AlaninWales
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Joined: 26 Oct 2012, 1:47pm

Re: I am not a vegan

Postby AlaninWales » 18 Jan 2019, 2:55pm

661-Pete wrote:Now you've started me wondering. It's a well-known piece of wisdom that you can quickly ripen avocados - and other unripe fruit - by placing them in the same bowl as the bananas - because the bananas give off ethylene which encourages other fruit to ripen. Indeed I do exactly that, if I have unripe avocados in the house.

So what is the 'signal' being sent out there? Is the banana telling the avocado, "ripen yourself pronto, because there are animals out there simply salivating in their eagerness to gobble you up!"?

Possibly, for certain fruits being eaten is part of their reproductory cycle.