I am not a vegan

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661-Pete
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Re: I am not a vegan

Postby 661-Pete » 29 Dec 2018, 1:51pm

Mick F wrote:Arguably, the world would be a better place if we cut down on eating meat to perhaps twice a week. Dunno if I would be happy doing that though. I like - and thrive - on a meaty diet, though this morning I had a rasher of bacon and an egg for breakfast, but a banana+cheese+bread+butter lunch, and we plan on fish and chips for tea.
Better than meat three times a day. I'll give you that. Try and think of the meat-free meals you do like, and focus on them. I'm not asking you to subsist on brussels sprouts and spinach if it so happens you're not keen on them (only guessing)!
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661-Pete
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Re: I am not a vegan

Postby 661-Pete » 29 Dec 2018, 1:59pm

Have to admit, I find the sight of a 'full English breakfast' rather nauseating. Don't know why, but I've always been like that. And it's not so much about it containing meat either - I've seen vegan versions of the Full English on offer, but I wouldn't eat those either.

I'm fine with meat-substitute meals at other times of the day - although we don't indulge in them very often. For lunch today we had veggie-filled (home made) samosas - plus salad and a bit of bread'n'cheese to round off. Very tasty too. Tonight we're having fish. Real fish, that is, not 'substitute'...

My breakfasts don't vary all that much - some might find them a bit weird I suppose. Half an avocado (or failing that, a bowl of muesli) plus either half a grapefruit or a slice of melon. Toast and hoummous or similar (I only rarely put butter or jam on my toast). Tea with milk but not sugar. I'm being told that this is not a particularly healthy breakfast, but I've got into the habit. At least it scores healthier than sausage/bacon/egg/tomato/fried bread etc. etc....
Suppose that this room is a lift. The support breaks and down we go with ever-increasing velocity.
Let us pass the time by performing physical experiments...
--- Arthur Eddington (creator of the Eddington Number).

Ben@Forest
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Re: I am not a vegan

Postby Ben@Forest » 29 Dec 2018, 2:00pm

Mick F wrote:What would the world be like if we were all vegan?


For a start all a bit shorter and less fat (those of us on Western diets anyway). It's possible that with less livestock farming we'd have retained more pristine habitats, but veganism may mean more arable farming which accommodates less diversity than grazed land.

Of course a lot depends on whether veganism also means no wool, leather or other animal produce. Does it mean not controlling deer or squirrel? And would human development be at the standard it's at right now if animal products had never been used? For instance insulin used to be derived from sheep.

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661-Pete
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Re: I am not a vegan

Postby 661-Pete » 29 Dec 2018, 2:10pm

Ben@Forest wrote:It's possible that with less livestock farming we'd have retained more pristine habitats, but veganism may mean more arable farming which accommodates less diversity than grazed land.
The impact which it would have on the agricultural landscape is one of the telling arguments against universal veganism, I have to admit (and I concede that you're probably more of an expert on this than I am).

For instance insulin used to be derived from sheep.
I've seen it seriously suggested, in a book on History of Science, that Type 1 diabetics who depend on insulin ought to, if they are opposed to animal experimentation, refuse their insulin. This is because it was initially researched and developed (by Banting and Best, and others) by conducting fatal experiments on dogs. Of course this would mean that many Type 1 patients would die...

No-win, I suppose. But I still maintain that going part of the way, is better than doing nothing about it.
Suppose that this room is a lift. The support breaks and down we go with ever-increasing velocity.
Let us pass the time by performing physical experiments...
--- Arthur Eddington (creator of the Eddington Number).

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Si
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Re: I am not a vegan

Postby Si » 29 Dec 2018, 3:06pm

Mick F wrote:
Mick F wrote:What would the world be like if we were all vegan?
What I'm suggesting, is that we can't all be vegan.

Arguably, the single most important invention in the history of mankind is the ploughshare. Without it, we would still have been hunter-gatherers, and we would never have had industry and manufacturing. Without using animals to pull the ploughs, it would have been impossible to have a decent farm - therefore, we'd still be hunter-gatherers and veganism wouldn't/couldn't have been invented.


Nope, you don't need the plough for arable agriculture. You are looking at it from a very western European perspective - remember that we were pretty late adopting agriculture and that our type of early agriculture doesn't necessarily match that of the rest of the world. What we have been able to do, though, is impress our kinds of modern agriculture on large part of the rest of the world.

But getting back on topic, I think that the various hunter-gatherer-fisher arguments do slightly miss the point. Veganism has many definitions, but to many it is about (but not limited to) not inflicting unnecessary suffering on animals. Vegans that I know have no problem whatsoever with wild animals killing other wild animals as part of the natural food chain. Thus, if we were still H-G-Fers and had never discovered agriculture then we would still be very much part of a pretty balanced natural food chain. We would not have over populated large parts of the planet, we would not have wasted so many natural resources, we would not have turned so many environments hostile to the species that used to live in them, and we would not be stuffing the planet and its many other non-human residents. In short, we would actually be vegan or vegetarian (in the original meaning of the word)......we would eat meat but we would not be inflicting upon animals any suffering that differed to what animals naturally inflict on each other.

The problem to the modern person is that the evolution of our technology has now placed us in a position where we could technically (with some adjustment) more or less all live on non-animal food and products, thus preventing a large amount of suffering to animals, the environment, and thus ourselves. However, culturally I doubt that we could do it as the habitus tends to overrule logic for so many, and greed overrules compassion for so many more. Merry Christmas and we are all doomed.

pete75
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Re: I am not a vegan

Postby pete75 » 29 Dec 2018, 6:21pm

Si wrote:
Mick F wrote:
Mick F wrote:What would the world be like if we were all vegan?
What I'm suggesting, is that we can't all be vegan.

Arguably, the single most important invention in the history of mankind is the ploughshare. Without it, we would still have been hunter-gatherers, and we would never have had industry and manufacturing. Without using animals to pull the ploughs, it would have been impossible to have a decent farm - therefore, we'd still be hunter-gatherers and veganism wouldn't/couldn't have been invented.


Nope, you don't need the plough for arable agriculture. You are looking at it from a very western European perspective - remember that we were pretty late adopting agriculture and that our type of early agriculture doesn't necessarily match that of the rest of the world. What we have been able to do, though, is impress our kinds of modern agriculture on large part of the rest of the world.

But getting back on topic, I think that the various hunter-gatherer-fisher arguments do slightly miss the point. Veganism has many definitions, but to many it is about (but not limited to) not inflicting unnecessary suffering on animals. Vegans that I know have no problem whatsoever with wild animals killing other wild animals as part of the natural food chain. Thus, if we were still H-G-Fers and had never discovered agriculture then we would still be very much part of a pretty balanced natural food chain. We would not have over populated large parts of the planet, we would not have wasted so many natural resources, we would not have turned so many environments hostile to the species that used to live in them, and we would not be stuffing the planet and its many other non-human residents. In short, we would actually be vegan or vegetarian (in the original meaning of the word)......we would eat meat but we would not be inflicting upon animals any suffering that differed to what animals naturally inflict on each other.

The problem to the modern person is that the evolution of our technology has now placed us in a position where we could technically (with some adjustment) more or less all live on non-animal food and products, thus preventing a large amount of suffering to animals, the environment, and thus ourselves. However, culturally I doubt that we could do it as the habitus tends to overrule logic for so many, and greed overrules compassion for so many more. Merry Christmas and we are all doomed.


The ancient Egyptians were one of the earliest agrarian based civilisations. They used ox drawn ploughs. There's also evidence of ploughing in the Indus valley almost 3000 years before Christ and, according to Wikipedia, as far back as 3800BC in the Czech republic. None of these places are western European.
If Vegans thinks it's fine to eat meat if we don't inflict any more cruelty than animals inflict on each other then we've a lot of leeway.For example packs of wild dogs kill their prey by eating alive and have you ever seen a cat playing with it's prey.

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Si
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Re: I am not a vegan

Postby Si » 29 Dec 2018, 6:41pm

Lots of people have used ploughs, doesnt mean that they were necessary to adoption of agriculture. 3800bc is not early in terms of agriculture.....e.g. South Street ard marks , Lissmore Fields, etc...relitively late.

As for cats playing with their prey etc, i think youve totally missed the point there! I certainly said nothing about it being ok to inflict suffering just because some other species does.

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Cunobelin
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Re: I am not a vegan

Postby Cunobelin » 29 Dec 2018, 6:42pm

661-Pete wrote:Have to admit, I find the sight of a 'full English breakfast' rather nauseating. Don't know why, but I've always been like that. And it's not so much about it containing meat either - I've seen vegan versions of the Full English on offer, but I wouldn't eat those either.

I'm fine with meat-substitute meals at other times of the day - although we don't indulge in them very often. For lunch today we had veggie-filled (home made) samosas - plus salad and a bit of bread'n'cheese to round off. Very tasty too. Tonight we're having fish. Real fish, that is, not 'substitute'...

My breakfasts don't vary all that much - some might find them a bit weird I suppose. Half an avocado (or failing that, a bowl of muesli) plus either half a grapefruit or a slice of melon. Toast and hoummous or similar (I only rarely put butter or jam on my toast). Tea with milk but not sugar. I'm being told that this is not a particularly healthy breakfast, but I've got into the habit. At least it scores healthier than sausage/bacon/egg/tomato/fried bread etc. etc....


There are two things that should not be allowed to exist

"Meat free" Sausages
"Alcohol free" beer

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Cunobelin
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Re: I am not a vegan

Postby Cunobelin » 29 Dec 2018, 6:46pm

Si wrote:Lots of people have used ploughs, doesnt mean that they were necessary to adoption of agriculture.

As for cats playing with their prey etc, i think youve totally missed the point there! I certainly said nothing about it being ok to inflict suffering just because some other species does.


There are a number of studies that show plants are also sentient, respond to danger and feel "pain"

There are songs about plant cruelty!!!!


pete75
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Re: I am not a vegan

Postby pete75 » 29 Dec 2018, 7:10pm

Cunobelin wrote:
661-Pete wrote:Have to admit, I find the sight of a 'full English breakfast' rather nauseating. Don't know why, but I've always been like that. And it's not so much about it containing meat either - I've seen vegan versions of the Full English on offer, but I wouldn't eat those either.

I'm fine with meat-substitute meals at other times of the day - although we don't indulge in them very often. For lunch today we had veggie-filled (home made) samosas - plus salad and a bit of bread'n'cheese to round off. Very tasty too. Tonight we're having fish. Real fish, that is, not 'substitute'...

My breakfasts don't vary all that much - some might find them a bit weird I suppose. Half an avocado (or failing that, a bowl of muesli) plus either half a grapefruit or a slice of melon. Toast and hoummous or similar (I only rarely put butter or jam on my toast). Tea with milk but not sugar. I'm being told that this is not a particularly healthy breakfast, but I've got into the habit. At least it scores healthier than sausage/bacon/egg/tomato/fried bread etc. etc....


There are two things that should not be allowed to exist

"Meat free" Sausages
"Alcohol free" beer


Hey I've some of that alcohol free beer - not bad if you slip adouble scotch in....

pete75
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Re: I am not a vegan

Postby pete75 » 29 Dec 2018, 7:14pm

Si wrote:
As for cats playing with their prey etc, i think youve totally missed the point there! I certainly said nothing about it being ok to inflict suffering just because some other species does.


Si wrote: In short, we would actually be vegan or vegetarian (in the original meaning of the word)......we would eat meat but we would not be inflicting upon animals any suffering that differed to what animals naturally inflict on each other.


Canuk
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Re: I am not a vegan

Postby Canuk » 29 Dec 2018, 7:21pm

I guess I would like to eat less meat but itsvery difficult here in France. Meat is everywhere. Hunting it at the weekend is a more popular sport than football. It's still the sorry case that if you order in a typical French menu and you say you are a vegetarian you'll be offered salad du jour and that's it. Take it or leave it.

This weekend or local supermarket is having a festival of pork, with 40 odd pork products (half of them Spanish) which is a meat I don't touch because the cruelly put upon them (in Spain especially) is extreme. Hunting is really popular in our village, every other weekend someone will bring 5lbs of this or that to our door as a 'present'. Wild boar is hunted quite extensively, but at least its killed quickly with a high powered rifle shot to the head.

Its not something I'm interested in, but Macron is keen to court the rural vote so has cut the cost of a licence in half. There are an awful lot of gun owners round here...

Killing wild animals quickly and humanely I don't have much of a problem with But farmed pig or poultry I cannot be doing with and we source all our poultry and beef from local farms and usual it's cheaper than the supermarkets. And the quality is incredibly good.

brynpoeth
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Re: I am not a vegan

Postby brynpoeth » 29 Dec 2018, 7:54pm

Doubtless there are vegetarian establishments in Paris, maybe Toulouse, Strassbourg :wink:
Any figures for deaths & injuries in hunting 'accidents', particularly to non-hunters?
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Canuk
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Re: I am not a vegan

Postby Canuk » 29 Dec 2018, 8:30pm

brynpoeth wrote:Doubtless there are vegetarian establishments in Paris, maybe Toulouse, Strassbourg :wink:
Any figures for deaths & injuries in hunting 'accidents', particularly to non-hunters?


I don't have any stats but getting shot by your hunting friends is sort of a badge of honour :shock:
There was a cyclist killed outright last year when a stray bullet caught him in the neck. He had bled to death before the paramedics got to him :(

pwa
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Re: I am not a vegan

Postby pwa » 29 Dec 2018, 8:43pm

I mostly buy ingredients and make my own meals when I'm in France. They can't even make a cheese sandwich without sticking jambon on it to make it inaccessible to vegetarians. And for vegans, no chance. You are cooking for yourself.