Anna Soubry MP: What on earth is going on?

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Canuk
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Anna Soubry MP: What on earth is going on?

Postby Canuk » 8 Jan 2019, 10:06am

Initially I thought this was perhaps a non story, but it seems in recent days the old chestnut of free speech has reared its ugly head. Its getting traction.

Is Soubry justified in her 'outrage', or are those protesting simply exercising their right to free speech. They have not sworn, nor sought to intimidate Soubry in their actions, neither have they incited or invited any violence in their speech. They have not physically attacked her or prevented her going about normal parliamentary business.

Does the lady protest too much?

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bovlomov
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Re: Anna Soubry MP: What on earth is going on?

Postby bovlomov » 8 Jan 2019, 10:19am

Canuk wrote: They have not sworn, nor sought to intimidate Soubry in their actions, neither have they incited or invited any violence in their speech. They have not physically attacked her or prevented her going about normal parliamentary business.

It depends how you define swearing. Calling her a 'piece of $___' seems like it. She wasn't free to walk along the pavement and they were screaming in her face.

I disagree with your assessment.

They were behaving so badly, I wouldn't be at all surprised to discover that the ringleaders are from Special Branch.

Canuk
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Re: Anna Soubry MP: What on earth is going on?

Postby Canuk » 8 Jan 2019, 10:25am

bovlomov wrote:
Canuk wrote: They have not sworn, nor sought to intimidate Soubry in their actions, neither have they incited or invited any violence in their speech. They have not physically attacked her or prevented her going about normal parliamentary business.

It depends how you define swearing. Calling her a 'piece of $___' seems like it. She wasn't free to walk along the pavement and they were screaming in her face.

I disagree with your assessment.

They were behaving so badly, I wouldn't be at all surprised to discover that the ringleaders are from Special Branch.


That thought definitely went through my head, a state sponsored Op. My Uncle in Scotland saw exactly the same 'Right wing loonies', at play before their referendum. People who looked so out of place in the scheme of things (they were all Lobdoners) that you would have to assume they were paid actors of the state, primed and paid for by the intelligence services to sow discontent and violence... We'll probably never know.

roubaixtuesday
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Re: Anna Soubry MP: What on earth is going on?

Postby roubaixtuesday » 8 Jan 2019, 10:27am

Canuk wrote:Does the lady protest too much?


One MP has already been murdered by a leave supporter.

The leave vote was accompanied by an upsurge in violence against immigrants, up to and including murder IIRC.

The current "demonstrators" seem to be from a fascist organisation.

Soubry's fears seem entirely justified, alas.

This Brexit lark is going dreadfully well, don't you think?

kwackers
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Re: Anna Soubry MP: What on earth is going on?

Postby kwackers » 8 Jan 2019, 10:28am

Canuk wrote:That thought definitely went through my head, a state sponsored Op. My cousin in Scotland saw exactly the same 'Right wing loonies', at play before their referendum. People who looked so out of place in the scheme of things (they were all Lobdoners) that you would have to assume they were paid actors of the state, primed and paid for by the intelligence services to sow discontent and violence... We'll probably never know.

I doubt it. Too many people, it would be impossible to keep quiet.
If the state does anything like this it's usually to quietly sow the seeds of discontent and rely on the mob to do the rest.

As for free speech, on an individual level people can say what they like but once it becomes a mob then it's gone too far.

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mjr
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Re: Anna Soubry MP: What on earth is going on?

Postby mjr » 8 Jan 2019, 10:48am

roubaixtuesday wrote:
Canuk wrote:Does the lady protest too much?


One MP has already been murdered by a leave supporter.

Isn't assassinated more usually used to describe such political murders?

roubaixtuesday wrote:The leave vote was accompanied by an upsurge in violence against immigrants, up to and including murder IIRC.

The current "demonstrators" seem to be from a fascist organisation.

Soubry's fears seem entirely justified, alas.

Indeed. I struggle to understand how anyone can see the video of Soubry being obstructed and shouted at by morons with union flags on their yellow jackets and conclude "They have not [...] sought to intimidate Soubry". Her abusers are so close to her that one hopes they aren't armed, else we could be looking at another assassination.

roubaixtuesday wrote:This Brexit lark is going dreadfully well, don't you think?

Nope. Instead of continuing to scapegoat Remainers, it's time for Leavers to come clean, admit they've no workable plan and make some compromises to heal the divides.
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pwa
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Re: Anna Soubry MP: What on earth is going on?

Postby pwa » 8 Jan 2019, 11:01am

If you want to heal the divide you have to be nice to each other. That applies to both sides.

The thing that intrigued me about the people calling Soubry a Nazi is how Nazi-like their behaviour was, seeking to shout down a dissenting voice and get their way by intimidation. I don't agree with Soubry on much but I think she stood up to it well and if I had been there I would have been on her side at that particular moment.

There is an ugly divide but it won't go away until sensible people stop trying to point score at every opportunity. The yobs were Leave supporters but using this bad behaviour as evidence against Leave in general is only widening that divide. Most Leave supporters would be as horrified as anyone else by this event. Let's stand together for democracy and freedom of speech and not split yet again along Remain / Leave lines.

roubaixtuesday
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Re: Anna Soubry MP: What on earth is going on?

Postby roubaixtuesday » 8 Jan 2019, 11:16am

pwa wrote:If you want to heal the divide you have to be nice to each other. That applies to both sides.

The thing that intrigued me about the people calling Soubry a Nazi is how Nazi-like their behaviour was, seeking to shout down a dissenting voice and get their way by intimidation. I don't agree with Soubry on much but I think she stood up to it well and if I had been there I would have been on her side at that particular moment.

There is an ugly divide but it won't go away until sensible people stop trying to point score at every opportunity. The yobs were Leave supporters but using this bad behaviour as evidence against Leave in general is only widening that divide. Most Leave supporters would be as horrified as anyone else by this event. Let's stand together for democracy and freedom of speech and not split yet again along Remain / Leave lines.


pwa, whilst I have sympathy with your position, I strongly disagree with it.

The root cause of this is, IMO, the explicitly xenophobic leave campaign, which validated and normalised the views of these thugs.

Now, the same people are using these threats as a justification for not running 2nd referendum, because it will encourage more thuggery.

The threat to democracy and free speech comes not directly from these thugs but from the fundamental nature of the leave campaign, and the continued nationalist manipulation by those people.

[Edited because the text got lost somehow]

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mjr
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Re: Anna Soubry MP: What on earth is going on?

Postby mjr » 8 Jan 2019, 11:57am

pwa wrote:There is an ugly divide but it won't go away until sensible people stop trying to point score at every opportunity. The yobs were Leave supporters but using this bad behaviour as evidence against Leave in general is only widening that divide. Most Leave supporters would be as horrified as anyone else by this event. Let's stand together for democracy and freedom of speech and not split yet again along Remain / Leave lines.

And yet, the bulk of criticism from Leavers around this issue has been directed at Remainers, like the above, scoring points by accusing Remainers of point-scoring when they dare to suggest that moderate Leavers should help put the house in order and stop pandering to these thugs! :-(

How can we "stand together for democracy" with those opposing a democratic referendum on the deal, contrary to what even Leave extremists like Rees-Mogg said before the referendum?
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pwa
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Re: Anna Soubry MP: What on earth is going on?

Postby pwa » 8 Jan 2019, 12:08pm

mjr wrote:
pwa wrote:There is an ugly divide but it won't go away until sensible people stop trying to point score at every opportunity. The yobs were Leave supporters but using this bad behaviour as evidence against Leave in general is only widening that divide. Most Leave supporters would be as horrified as anyone else by this event. Let's stand together for democracy and freedom of speech and not split yet again along Remain / Leave lines.

And yet, the bulk of criticism from Leavers around this issue has been directed at Remainers, like the above, scoring points by accusing Remainers of point-scoring when they dare to suggest that moderate Leavers should help put the house in order and stop pandering to these thugs! :-(

How can we "stand together for democracy" with those opposing a democratic referendum on the deal, contrary to what even Leave extremists like Rees-Mogg said before the referendum?


You are saying in effect that we are pandering to these thugs. Otheriwse how could we be expected to stop? You are not seeing a line between people like me and the thugs outside Parliament. In effect you are refusing my invitation to stand side by side against the thugs. If you want to heal a divide sometimes you have to take a step forward and reach out.

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Re: Anna Soubry MP: What on earth is going on?

Postby mjr » 8 Jan 2019, 12:16pm

pwa wrote:
mjr wrote:And yet, the bulk of criticism from Leavers around this issue has been directed at Remainers, like the above, scoring points by accusing Remainers of point-scoring when they dare to suggest that moderate Leavers should help put the house in order and stop pandering to these thugs! :-(

How can we "stand together for democracy" with those opposing a democratic referendum on the deal, contrary to what even Leave extremists like Rees-Mogg said before the referendum?


You are saying in effect that we are pandering to these thugs. Otheriwse how could we be expected to stop?

It's pretty poor behaviour to edit my quote without mentioning that you've done so.

How are you pandering to them? Well, look at their demands: you're pushing for most of them, aren't you?

pwa wrote:You are not seeing a line between people like me and the thugs outside Parliament.

I do see a line, in that you're not physically harassing Remainers, as far as I know. It's pretty poor behaviour to make stuff up about me like that. Can there be any reasonable debate while you're trying to tell people that they think/do stuff they don't?

pwa wrote:In effect you are refusing my invitation to stand side by side against the thugs. If you want to heal a divide sometimes you have to take a step forward and reach out.

Your invitation seemed insincere because it was clearly structured so acceptance would imply that I agreed with democracy meaning no more votes. How exactly do you think you're taking a step forward and reaching out by what looks like suggesting that I agree with you unconditionally?
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bovlomov
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Re: Anna Soubry MP: What on earth is going on?

Postby bovlomov » 8 Jan 2019, 12:24pm

Prominent Leave campaigners have been playing a dangerous game, making statements that might reasonably be expected to stir up violence, and then standing back as if butter wouldn't melt in their mouths.

Johnson's unnecessary sniggering at muslim attire wasn't racist in itself, but it appealed to racists, and many of the folk defending the comments against accusations of racism then went on to make racist comments of their own. And it provoked a new wave of anti-muslim abuse in the streets. Of course Johnson knew that, but he wasn't directly implicated. It was only a joke, but mainly it served his purposes.

The same goes for Farage's comments about Romanians and asylum seekers. Ha! Can't we take a joke? Yes we can, but his racist supporters don't think it's a joke. He knows that.

And for many newspaper editors, incitement is their profession. When someone is killed, butter wouldn't melt in their mouths. They all agree that there's no place for violence in British politics, and then they go back to incite some more.

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Re: Anna Soubry MP: What on earth is going on?

Postby pwa » 8 Jan 2019, 12:28pm

mjr wrote:Your invitation seemed insincere because it was clearly structured so acceptance would imply that I agreed with democracy meaning no more votes. How exactly do you think you're taking a step forward and reaching out by what looks like suggesting that I agree with you unconditionally?

I'm trying to put it simply, with no tricks. I'm just asking that we come together on this issue and say that we are the democrats and we deplore intimidation of political figures. That's it.

Using this incident to have another pop at leave voters is just pushing us away.

I hate what happened to Anna Soubry yesterday, just as I hate the fact that a far right German politician was beaten up yesterday. I wouldn't vote for either of them, but I don't want thugs calling the shots on our streets.

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Cugel
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Re: Anna Soubry MP: What on earth is going on?

Postby Cugel » 8 Jan 2019, 12:44pm

Canuk wrote:Initially I thought this was perhaps a non story, but it seems in recent days the old chestnut of free speech has reared its ugly head. Its getting traction.

Is Soubry justified in her 'outrage', or are those protesting simply exercising their right to free speech. They have not sworn, nor sought to intimidate Soubry in their actions, neither have they incited or invited any violence in their speech. They have not physically attacked her or prevented her going about normal parliamentary business.

Does the lady protest too much?

Is this you trying to make a serious point about free speech et al or is it your taking the side of the thuggerists merely because they wore a label you liked (their little yellow vests)? :-)

If it's the latter, well .....

But if it's the former I feel you need to define the advantages of totally free speech and then explore the possible drawbacks before coming to a conclusion one way or another. As you know, the British traditions concerning free speech are not the same as those of, for instance, the USA, where the blackening of both names and eyes (often whole bodies) is an approved part of the "violence is not just the final but the best answer to all issues" tradition of that benighted place.

Anyroadup, I personally like the notion of free speech as it tends to reveal rather a lot about the speaker. But when does speech become violence; and assault; an intolerable limitation of the subject's own freedoms of other kinds besides the speech-spitting? I will be interested to read your arguments and considerations of the matter.

Cugel

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Re: Anna Soubry MP: What on earth is going on?

Postby roubaixtuesday » 8 Jan 2019, 12:55pm

pwa wrote:Using this incident to have another pop at leave voters is just pushing us away.


I'm tired of hearing leavers blaming remain voters for their own opinions or votes. Could I suggest you take responsibility for these, regardless of what another group thinks?